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Author | Topic: The Debt Clock | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Help everybody to rise. Float the bottom of the boat and the top will rise with it.
How is it fair to me to be stuck with the masses...unable to rise?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage, eh?
But what if I wanted a better car than the one everybody else has? Must I be stuck in line with everyone else waiting for my bowl of porridge when all I want is a steak?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Give up your chicken. Don't expect the neighbours to pay for your Cadillac.
A chicken in every pot and a car in every garage, eh?But what if I wanted a better car than the one everybody else has? Phat writes:
Why do you deserve more than everyone else?
Must I be stuck in line with everyone else waiting for my bowl of porridge when all I want is a steak?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Why do you deserve more than everyone else? What I deserve is not the issue. The issue is what it is possible for me to have. Why must I be limited to the level of the tide?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why do you deserve to be above the tide?
What I deserve is not the issue. The issue is what it is possible for me to have. Why must I be limited to the level of the tide?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Why do you deserve to be above the tide? My Dad used to explain his take on socialism to me. Of course, he conflated it with Soviet Era communism, but he basically made the argument that in America, people were free to buy the car that they could afford rather than be forced to all drive essentially the same car. You ask about what someone deserves...as if there is some law that forces all people into having the exact (or approximate) same things. Perhaps this does not bother you...being quite liberal and all you are fine with it...but would you feel the same if you were forced to accept it? I agree that we should focus on raising the tide for the workers. I don't think we should legislate what the workers must have and cant have, however. If the cashier cant come to an agreement with the Boss, the cashiers collectively pressure the Boss for more. If the Boss refuses, we look for other jobs. One side is partial to favoritism and the value of an individual worker, where young strong folks have value. The other side is partial to experience and patience, where the older people apply wisdom and patience as a skill equivalent to muscle. In a free country, there is never a discussion on what an individual deserves. Only on what an individual can aspire to have through hard work, muscle, patience, and wisdom.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
There isn't. Nor is there any law or principle that entitles you to something better than the next person.
You ask about what someone deserves...as if there is some law that forces all people into having the exact (or approximate) same things. Phat writes:
How are you being "forced" to accept anything? You act like you're the victim - being "forced" to accept what millions of others have. Again, what entitles you to something better?
Perhaps this does not bother you...being quite liberal and all you are fine with it...but would you feel the same if you were forced to accept it? Phat writes:
Who has suggested that?
I don't think we should legislate what the workers must have and cant have, however.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Again, what entitles you to something better? If I want something better I should have the means to obtain it. There will be a cost that I pay one way or another, but I believe that I can achieve what it is I want. In a sense, I entitle myself.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Why shouldn't the poor peons in the working class have the means too? What entitles you to a leg up on them?
If I want something better I should have the means to obtain it.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
What entitles you to a leg up on them? If there were factors that made my paycheck larger than theirs and my bosses paychck larger than mine they would be
The union would add You may argue that they have greater need. My question is does need trump education and experience and ability and length of service? I too use the criteria of need. I am older, approaching retirement, and need a bigger paycheck than a 16 year old who got his girlfriend pregnant yet lives at home? So many scenarios factor into one member of a working-class needing more than another member. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Why shouldn't the poor peons in the working class have the means too? Should they have the same means regardless of education? Regardless of ambition? Ability? Strength? Need?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
I don't buy any of that. There are minimum-wage cashiers with equal ability and more experience and more length of service.
If there were factors that made my paycheck larger than theirs and my bosses paychck larger than mine they would beEducation Experience AbilityThe union would add Length Of Service Phat writes:
The problem is that the need is there whether the paycheque fills the need or not. Needs that are not met cause poorer heath, more absenteeism, poorer childcare, poorer education, more poverty, more crime, etc. My question is does need trump education and experience and ability and length of service? You don't accomplish anything by ignoring needs. Invest in the lowest paid workers and you'll save yourself a lot of tax dollars in the long run.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I think I agree with your argument. I only fight for more because I think I need it. You argue that raising the tide is better than individual initiative. You and Bernie Sanders would get along well!
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
They should have the same access to education.
Should they have the same means regardless of education? Phat writes:
Ambition is over-rated. I'd hire somebody who just wants to do his job well rather than somebody who wants to be the CEO before he's 30.
Regardless of ambition? Phat writes:
For the umpteenth time, you do not have more ability or strength than the minimum wage earner.
Ability? Strength?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
So if you were the union chief officer, would you propose flat wage scales for every worker versus progressive wage scales based on length of service? Should the new guy get as much as the 14-year veteran?
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith "as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler
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