Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 107 (8806 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 12-18-2017 5:53 AM
341 online now:
CosmicChimp, PaulK, Tangle (3 members, 338 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: jaufre
Post Volume:
Total: 824,537 Year: 29,143/21,208 Month: 1,209/1,847 Week: 132/452 Day: 6/126 Hour: 0/1

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1234567
8
Author Topic:   The Debt Clock
ringo
Member
Posts: 14002
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 106 of 111 (820217)
09-17-2017 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
09-17-2017 3:40 PM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
Phat writes:

So if you were the union chief officer, would you propose flat wage scales for every worker versus progressive wage scales based on length of service? Should the new guy get as much as the 14-year veteran?


I might propose disbanding the union. Unions have mostly outlived their usefulness. They did a lot of good for (some) working people but that should have been done by political action.

We've gotten to the point where union members can't afford to strike without risking their lavish lifestyle. What good is the right to strike if you lose your third car and your boat?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 3:40 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by NoNukes, posted 09-17-2017 3:56 PM ringo has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10127
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 107 of 111 (820218)
09-17-2017 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by ringo
09-17-2017 3:51 PM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
What good is the right to strike if you lose your third car and your boat?

That does not appear to be a problem that Phat has. Perhaps that is not the issue for a substantial number of his peers.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by ringo, posted 09-17-2017 3:51 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 09-17-2017 4:43 PM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 09-18-2017 11:41 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 108 of 111 (820225)
09-17-2017 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by NoNukes
09-17-2017 3:56 PM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
Although some workers (longtime veterans) have bought houses which they would lose if they went on a lengthy strike. The CEO's wouldnt even lose so much as sleep.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by NoNukes, posted 09-17-2017 3:56 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14002
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 109 of 111 (820253)
09-18-2017 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by NoNukes
09-17-2017 3:56 PM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
NoNukes writes:

That does not appear to be a problem that Phat has. Perhaps that is not the issue for a substantial number of his peers.


I've been a union member and I've been on strike. Try paying all of your bills on strike pay. Nobody I knew voted to strike and everybody I knew was praying for the strike to end. The strike was about as effective as shaking your fist at a hurricane. There was never any doubt about the outcome.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by NoNukes, posted 09-17-2017 3:56 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 09-18-2017 11:53 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 110 of 111 (820257)
09-18-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by ringo
09-18-2017 11:41 AM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
The thing is, the union is the best way to negotiate raises. The non-union chains make roughly $8.00 an hour less than we do. Our argument is that the masses deserve a better pay rate. If we all simply wait for the bottom to catch up, we will all be on the bottom, swimming fervently towards the surface.

I also figured out the unions strike fund, (roughly 24 million) would come out to $3400.00 per member...enough to last us about 10 weeks. You are right---nobody wants a strike, but nobody wants to get thrown in the pool with global labor values, which are far less than what most Americans make.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ringo, posted 09-18-2017 11:41 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by ringo, posted 09-18-2017 12:08 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14002
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 111 of 111 (820260)
09-18-2017 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Phat
09-18-2017 11:53 AM


Re: What The Masses Deserve
Phat writes:

The thing is, the union is the best way to negotiate raises.


But it doesn't work. Back in the seventies, our construction unions negotiated their little hearts out to get wage parity with Alberta. Their argument was, "What keeps workers from moving to Alberta if the wages are higher there?" They finally got wage parity and five minutes later the construction unions in Alberta were saying, "We have higher living costs than Saskatchewan so we need a raise."

As long as you're negotiating for higher wages, you're just chasing your tail.

Phat writes:

Our argument is that the masses deserve a better pay rate.


No it isn't. Your argument is that you deserve more than the masses. If you cared at all about the masses, you'd be campaigning for a minimum wage hike.

Phat writes:

If we all simply wait for the bottom to catch up, we will all be on the bottom, swimming fervently towards the surface.


Yeah, to hell with equality. Next thing you know the working class will want the vote.

Phat writes:

... nobody wants to get thrown in the pool with global labor values, which are far less than what most Americans make.


It's too late. You're already in the pool. You love buying cheap goods from China and Indonesia and Bangladesh but where are you going to sell your own goods if the masses can't afford them?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Phat, posted 09-18-2017 11:53 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Prev1234567
8
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017