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Author Topic:   Decline And Fall Of The American Empire
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 113 of 170 (820349)
09-19-2017 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by NoNukes
09-19-2017 12:25 PM


NoNukes writes:
You dispute them by claiming that the value is created by the purchaser rather than being part of what is purposed.
So answer the dispute. Where does the value magically come from in your world?
Nonukes writes:
You ignore the fact that even a day laborer won't part with his money unless he is receiving something of value.
And where does the money he receives come from? Where is the magical source?
NoNukes writes:
The problem is not that my answers do not make sense, it is that you refused to accept my answers.
I pointed out how your answers don't work.
NoNukes writes:
Of course, your dumbass then insists that you've won the argument.
As I've said, I'm not making an argument. I'm trying to understand yours. If you can't back it up or if you choose to abandon it, that doesn't break my heart.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by NoNukes, posted 09-19-2017 12:25 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by NoNukes, posted 09-19-2017 12:42 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 116 of 170 (820352)
09-19-2017 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by New Cat's Eye
09-19-2017 12:40 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:
You're not making any sense.
You could try saying more than, "Nuh uh." Explain what you don't understand.
Allow me to hold your hand: You bought the land for 100 and then turned around and sold the logging rights for 200. You COULD have told the original owner that he could get 200 for the logging rights. You COULD have offered to find a buyer for the logging rights in return for a finder's fee of, say, 10 per cent.
The trees didn't gain value just because you bought them. They were always worth the 200. You underpaid for them. If you knew they were worth 200, you deliberately ripped the guy off.
New Cat's Eye writes:
You prolly shouldn't enter a discussion involving the proletariat if you don't know what the labor class means.
I said I didn't know what YOU mean by the labour class. We're not talking about classes here.
New Cat's Eye writes:
Some people own the land.
How did they come to own the land?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-19-2017 12:40 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-19-2017 1:23 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 117 of 170 (820353)
09-19-2017 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by NoNukes
09-19-2017 12:42 PM


NoNukes writes:
I've expanded my answer to include a source for value.
Where? If I've failed to address your points, give me the chance to do it now.
You don't add much to a discussion by telling people they're too dumb to understand. Explain it better.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by NoNukes, posted 09-19-2017 12:42 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 119 of 170 (820357)
09-19-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by New Cat's Eye
09-19-2017 1:23 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:
I don't see how you're following anything that I'm saying....
I'm asking direct questions about what you're saying. How is that not following what you're saying?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-19-2017 1:23 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-19-2017 4:46 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 126 of 170 (820431)
09-20-2017 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by New Cat's Eye
09-19-2017 4:46 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:
You're not following because your questions are not about what I'm saying.
Bullshit.
You pay 100 for a plot of land and sell the logging rights for 200. You claim that's a "gain in value" of 100. But the trees didn't change. They fact that you only paid 100 means that you underpaid, not that the trees magically gained value. How is that not about what you're saying?
If you buy something for half price, the value doesn't doubkle the minute you leave the store.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-19-2017 4:46 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-21-2017 10:31 AM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 133 of 170 (820479)
09-21-2017 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by New Cat's Eye
09-21-2017 10:31 AM


New Cat's Eye writes:
Now, the land has more value to me....
That's a fictitious "value". You can believe your painting is worth a million but unless somebody is willing to pay a million for it, it isn't really worth a million.
New Cat's Eye writes:
If it isn't what someone is willing to pay for it, then what determines the value?
It's what somebody is willing and able to pay. They are able to pay because they have earned the money somehow. At some point, the money originates in labor.
New Cat's Eye writes:
If all value comes from labor, then who's labor provided the value to the rights to the trees?
The "rights" in and of themselves are meaningless. You can have the rights to every tree in the world but they're worth nothing unless you can cut them down and sell them.
New Cat's Eye writes:
Who's labor adds the value that naturally exists in the resources?
There is no value that naturally exists in the resources. They have no value until somebody does something.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-21-2017 10:31 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-21-2017 12:00 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 134 of 170 (820480)
09-21-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Stile
09-21-2017 11:36 AM


Re: Competition
Stile writes:
What labour increases the value in any bidding war?
The value is the final price. It's what somebody actually pays. Cat's Eye paid less than the real value. That doesn't mean the value increased.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Stile, posted 09-21-2017 11:36 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Stile, posted 09-21-2017 1:04 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 136 of 170 (820484)
09-21-2017 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by New Cat's Eye
09-21-2017 12:00 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:
Then that's just another undefined term in your claim.
All value comes from labor - for your own private definitions of value and labor that you refuse to explain.
I'm not making a claim. I'm questioning yours.
You're the one who claims that tress magically increase in value while you're just sitting there and you refuse to explain how.
You're the one who says work is not the same as labour and you refuse to explain how.
New Cat's Eye writes:
ringo writes:
There is no value that naturally exists in the resources.
So, no substance in your answer = no substance in your position.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-21-2017 12:00 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-21-2017 1:03 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 139 of 170 (820490)
09-21-2017 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by New Cat's Eye
09-21-2017 1:03 PM


New Cat's Eye writes:
You won't define your terms and you refuse to answer questions.
Be specific. if I've failed to answer ANYTHING, point it out specifically.
New Cat's Eye writes:
Until you define value and labor you're just having a toss.
I'm not using any unusual definitions. I'll admit I don't understand your claim that labour and work are not the same. As far as I'm concerned, they are. I wish you'd point out the difference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-21-2017 1:03 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 141 of 170 (820492)
09-21-2017 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Stile
09-21-2017 1:04 PM


Re: Competition
Stile writes:
When is a price "final?"
When the cash changes hands.
Stile writes:
CE "actually paid" $100 originally, but that wasn't "final" because someone "actually paid" a higher price later?
If CE owns the property for 10 years, does that $100 become final?
What the hell are you talking about?
New Cat's Eye paid 100 for the land.
Somebody paid New Cat's Eye 200 for the logging rights. That has nothing whatsoever to do with what he paid for the land.
The trees did not change value.
Stile writes:
This seems like a definitional run-around just to not admit that, perhaps, value can increase/change without labor.
I have no axe to grind here. I'll gladly agree that value can increase without labour - if anybody can produce a good example. So far, nobody has. So far, in every case what is actually paid is money that was earned at some point by labour. Feel free to give any other example you can think of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Stile, posted 09-21-2017 1:04 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Stile, posted 09-21-2017 1:41 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 145 of 170 (820535)
09-22-2017 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by Stile
09-21-2017 1:41 PM


Re: Competition
Stile writes:
No one has done any labor yet (the trees still stand).
Follow the money. Where did it come from?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Stile, posted 09-21-2017 1:41 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Phat, posted 10-04-2017 1:19 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 148 of 170 (821258)
10-04-2017 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Phat
10-04-2017 1:19 PM


Re: Competition
Phat writes:
OK lets take the Great Depression. Everyone was out of work. Why couldnt they just start working and create more money through their labor?
During the Depression, my father's family had zero income for two straight years. That's ZERO cash. They were farmers, so they had eggs, milk, vegetables, etc. (Ironically, living in the greatest wheat-exporting area in the world, they had to buy flour - and couldn't.) They didn't starve but they worked harder than ever to survive. Just for no cash.
My point is that all money involves work. That doesn't mean that all work involves money.
Phat writes:
Like you said, the hurricanes provide work for lots of labor. But the taxpayer pays.
And the worker IS the taxpayer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Phat, posted 10-04-2017 1:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2017 11:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 151 of 170 (821316)
10-05-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2017 11:20 PM


Re: Competition
New Cat's Eye writes:
My point about natural resources is that there is a lot of value in having ownership of them that doesn't require any of your labor to acquire...
I didn't say it requires your labour. I said it requires somebody's labour - to acquire the money that measures the value.
New Cat's Eye writes:
On top of that, their value can increase in ways that don't originate in labor - like market fluctuations.
Market fluctuations depend on how much of somebody's labour somebody is willing and able to spend on the resources.
New Cat's Eye writes:
Society has determined that certain individuals own certain things, and that ownership is not arbitrary.
That's exactly what arbitrary means. Society arbitrarily decides that you own the trees but not the minerals. Society arbitrarily decides that you can build a house on your land but not a chemical plant. Society arbitrarily decides that you can sell your land to country A but not to country B.
New Cat's Eye writes:
If the only way you know how to create value is through labor, then people are going to use thier money to buy your labor to create value for themselves.
Uh huh. That's what I've been saying, that the value comes from labour. If somebody "uses my labour" for their own benefit, the value is coming from labour even if the labourer doesn't receive the benefit.
New Cat's Eye writes:
So anyways, going back further - you entered a discussion revolving around the Labor Class
I never said anything about "the Labour Class".
New Cat's Eye writes:
There's nothing wrong with profiting off of human labor when you're risking your money to end up creating more valuable things.
I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. That's a different discussion. I said that labour and taking advantage of somebody else's labour both involve labour.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2017 11:20 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2017 9:02 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 154 of 170 (821375)
10-06-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by New Cat's Eye
10-05-2017 9:02 PM


Re: Competition
New Cat's Eye writes:
It takes work to generate money.
That's what I'm saying.
New Cat's Eye writes:
No, arbitrary means randomly selected. There's a process for determining ownership. And paperwork n'stuff. That's not arbitrary.
There are no fixed standards for determining ownership. That's why we need courts to figure it out. I gave examples.
New Cat's Eye writes:
After I pried it out of you...
I began discussing it around Message 40, long before your first post in the thread.
New Cat's Eye writes:
Not all value comes from labor.
And yet you agreed above that, "It takes work to generate money." Isn't that contradictory?
Or is it based on your claim that work and labour are different? I have asked you a number of times to explain the difference.
New Cat's Eye writes:
You do realize that the proliteriat is the Labor Class, right?
Nothing I have said applies to one "class" or another. I don't believe in class distinctions at all. What we have in Canada - and probably the US too - is a spectrum, not a series of distinct groups.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2017 9:02 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-06-2017 1:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 156 of 170 (821433)
10-07-2017 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by New Cat's Eye
10-06-2017 1:36 PM


Re: Competition
New Cat's Eye writes:
Risk adds value.
I don't think so. The value doesn't actually change until somebody agrees to pay you. You can take a risk on the lottery but that doesn't mean you're worth millions before you win.
New Cat's Eye writes:
You can make a machine that does work - labor is done by a human.
That's a plausible distinction - but how is it pertinent to this discussion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-06-2017 1:36 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-08-2017 9:01 PM ringo has replied

  
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