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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 76 of 1540 (820545)
09-22-2017 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by kbertsche
09-22-2017 11:33 AM


It's hopeless, KB. Doesn't matter what a Christian says these days, they in their infinite wisdom are going to judge us morally deficient.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by kbertsche, posted 09-22-2017 11:33 AM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Aussie, posted 09-22-2017 1:07 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 79 by PaulK, posted 09-22-2017 1:14 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 81 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2017 1:20 PM Faith has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 77 of 1540 (820546)
09-22-2017 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
09-22-2017 12:48 PM


The couple I have in mind regularly blaspheme God way beyond normal atheism...
So these atheists you are thinking of... you said you would LIKE to see them being tortured? Did you mean what you said? Did your words have meaning? Please answer.
Is there anyone at all you yourself think might deserve Hell? Mass murderers?
I think there is a primal, animalistic part in all of us that wants to lash out at injustice and brutality. But modern societies have in large part morally evolved past this kind of animalistic vengeance of centuries past. Brutal vengeance as commanded in the OT, or expressed in the sacrifice of Christ and the eternal suffering of the Lake of Fire is not a component of the modern penal code for good and justifiable reasons.
And I would like to request again that you give at least one example of a single atheist that has wished harm to you here on this forum. If you are unable, I think it will be instructive of where moral lines are actually drawn between believers and non-believers. I mean, I can think of a variety of reasons to despise the Biblical moral code, and I find it truly fascinating that you publically wish torture on those who vocally oppose torture.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 12:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 1:20 PM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 78 of 1540 (820547)
09-22-2017 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
09-22-2017 1:04 PM


It's hopeless, KB. Doesn't matter what a Christian says these days, they in their infinite wisdom are going to judge us morally deficient.
Well we are certainly not wanting to watch you guys get tortured!

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 1:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 79 of 1540 (820548)
09-22-2017 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
09-22-2017 1:04 PM


Of course that isn't true. You are not judged despite what you say, but because of what you say. That really should be obvious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 1:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 80 of 1540 (820549)
09-22-2017 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Aussie
09-22-2017 1:05 PM


Oh good grief. The expression "like to see them in Hell" doesn't mean I want to watch anyone be tortured, it means I think there may be a couple here who in my opinion rightly deserve punishment. Only two. I wouldn't name names.
Brutal vengeance as commanded in the OT, or expressed in the sacrifice of Christ and the eternal suffering of the Lake of Fire is not a component of the modern penal code for good and justifiable reasons.
But wrong nevertheless, as even murderers are not put to death these days as God says they should be. Genesis 9:6:
Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God made He man.
Why does just punishment have to be a "lashing out" or "animalistic vengeance?" It should be a solemn affair based on clear evidence that it is deserved, and executed with the desire that the person repent and ultimately be saved.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Aussie, posted 09-22-2017 1:05 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Aussie, posted 09-22-2017 1:34 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 81 of 1540 (820550)
09-22-2017 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
09-22-2017 1:04 PM


Faith writes:
It's hopeless, KB. Doesn't matter what a Christian says these days, they in their infinite wisdom are going to judge us morally deficient.
It matters what anybody says, I don't discriminate between belief systems.
If what you say is blatantly immoral - like condoning the condemnation of the vast majority of all human life on earth to everlasting torture despite no fault of their own (and even because of a fault of their own) - then you'll be judged by me to be morally deficient.
And, by the way, the smugness you've often presented at being one of the 'saved' and the glee you've often expressed in informing many of us here of our impending everlasting torment will almost certainly not help you much when your turn comes to discuss matters with your putative maker. Thus it is written.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 1:04 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 1:24 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 82 of 1540 (820551)
09-22-2017 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Tangle
09-22-2017 1:20 PM


You're projecting the "smugness" and "glee" but what does it matter what I say?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2017 1:20 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Aussie, posted 09-22-2017 1:37 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 87 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2017 1:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 83 of 1540 (820553)
09-22-2017 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
09-22-2017 1:20 PM


Oh good grief. The expression "like to see them in Hell" doesn't mean I want to watch anyone be tortured, it means I think there may be a couple here who in my opinion rightly deserve punishment. Only two. I wouldn't name names.
When you say you would like to see people being tortured, I take you at your word that you mean that. Otherwise your words have no meaning. This is not a fine pedantic point. I hold you morally accountable for the brutality of your words; it's not a point I think others reading you should brush over lightly. I'm not accusing you personally of this kind of psychopathy...I doubt you are. The God you want us to grovel before most certainly is as he is descibed throughout the Bible, and your words drip venom.
Why does just punishment have to be a "lashing out" or "animalistic vengeance?" It should be a solemn affair based on clear evidence that it is deserved, and executed with the desire that the person repent and ultimately be saved.
A punishment that fits the crime is not what I am arguing against. But infinite torture for a finite crime; for example, being a Hindu or a Buddist in your opinion, is so far out of proportion as to be almost unimaginable to most moral agencies.
Can I remind you to show whare a single atheist here has wished any harm on you to any extent? How about harm to any other Christian?

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 1:20 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 1:38 PM Aussie has replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 84 of 1540 (820554)
09-22-2017 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
09-22-2017 1:24 PM


... but what does it matter what I say?
"Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh..."
Outside words reveal inside hearts. You are morally accountable for them.
Unless your words mean nothing.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 1:24 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-22-2017 1:54 PM Aussie has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 85 of 1540 (820555)
09-22-2017 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Aussie
09-22-2017 1:34 PM


I DID NOT SAY I WOULD LIKE TO SEE ANYONE TORTURED.
There are lots of places in the Bible that describe what you all are doing, finding fault with someone who is not at fault, lying in wait to catch someone out for some innocent statement. Inventing crimes out of nothing, twisting words.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Aussie, posted 09-22-2017 1:34 PM Aussie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Aussie, posted 09-22-2017 1:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
Aussie
Member
Posts: 275
From: FL USA
Joined: 10-02-2006


Message 86 of 1540 (820556)
09-22-2017 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
09-22-2017 1:38 PM


There are very few people here I'd like to see in Hell either. A couple perhaps.
But...
I DID NOT SAY I WOULD LIKE TO SEE ANYONE TORTURED.
Yes you did. Right then, remember? When you said you would.
There are lots of places in the Bible that describe what you all are doing, finding fault with someone who is not at fault, lying in wait to catch someone out for some innocent statement.
We are holding you morally accountable for the words coming out of your mouth. You are all alone again, justifying the use of torture, like a creature out of the Dark Ages, while the rest of us are suggesting this is not a morally acceptable proposition.
Hindus and Buddhists are not evil because they are Hindus and Buddhists! How and why do I find myself suggesting to you that they should NOT be tortured? It almost makes me want to type in ALL CAPS at you!
Your words remind me of the Proverb...Is it chapter 1? I can't remember...
"If they say, Come with us, let us lie in wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause..."
No Faith. I will not join you.
Edited by Aussie, : No reason given.

"...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 1:38 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 87 of 1540 (820557)
09-22-2017 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
09-22-2017 1:24 PM


Faith writes:
You're projecting the "smugness" and "glee"
I'm absolutely not, you've exposed those emotions more than once. I particularly enjoyed your exclamation "boy are you in for a surprise".
but what does it matter what I say?
Interesting remark given we're on a debating site, but you do have a point, what you say very rarely, if ever, actually contains anything that I think matters at all - except in the negative way of pointing out how disgraceful and dangerous fundamental religious beliefs are.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 09-22-2017 1:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 88 of 1540 (820558)
09-22-2017 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Aussie
09-22-2017 1:37 PM


"Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh..."
Outside words reveal inside hearts. You are morally accountable for them.
Except on the internet...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Aussie, posted 09-22-2017 1:37 PM Aussie has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 89 of 1540 (820563)
09-22-2017 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by ringo
09-22-2017 12:52 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Logically, God wouldnt particularly want creatures living forever that wanted nothing to do with Him.
It would be similar to America allowing one of its states to be run by Kim Jong Un and refusing to participate in the consensus government already formed.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by ringo, posted 09-22-2017 12:52 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Tangle, posted 09-22-2017 5:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 91 by Aussie, posted 09-22-2017 5:14 PM Phat has replied
 Message 94 by ringo, posted 09-23-2017 11:41 AM Phat has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 90 of 1540 (820564)
09-22-2017 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Phat
09-22-2017 5:03 PM


Re: Salvation from Hell comes by Jesus Christ
Phat writes:
Logically, God wouldnt particularly want creatures living forever that wanted nothing to do with Him.
Er, why not?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Phat, posted 09-22-2017 5:03 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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