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Author Topic:   Encouragement From A Believers Perspective
Stile
Member
Posts: 3019
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 31 of 36 (820675)
09-25-2017 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Tangle
09-23-2017 3:22 AM


Re: From "A Tension Of Faith"
Tangle writes:

Stile writes:

Some people learn to cope with reality by laying their fears upon their imagination.
Like telling someone "it's going to be okay..." when you can't read the future.

You know you don't know.
They know you don't know (maybe).

But it can still help them feel better.

Sure, but you know, so what?

I think helping people feel better is important.

I don't know how to start to answer that - it seems pretty important to know what is real and what is imaginary doesn't it?

Yes. That wasn't the idea, though. The idea is that it's okay for people (if they want to) to follow something that is part of their imagination. Just as "okay" as it is for someone to follow something that can be validated against reality.

You seem to have imagined a position I hold that I do not. Where are you getting all this from?

I'm simply answering your questions, with a bit of extra rambling added in.
Take from it what you want.

People can do what the hell they want within the law, no matter how daft I think it is, and I have no interest in trying to stop them. But I will point out in places like this that I think it's daft.

And if you call something daft that I think is important, I'll point that out.

What I'm saying is that people are dropping their primitive beliefs all across the modern world. They're doing it quite naturally and without anyone forcing them. It's just part of how our societies are advancing, by accumulating real knowledge of the world and abandoning false and superstitious explanations.

With this, I fully agree.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Tangle, posted 09-23-2017 3:22 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 32 of 36 (820683)
09-25-2017 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Tangle
09-23-2017 3:40 PM


Re: Primitive Beliefs
What I'm saying is that people are dropping their primitive beliefs all across the modern world. They're doing it quite naturally and without anyone forcing them. It's just part of how our societies are advancing, by accumulating real knowledge of the world and abandoning false and superstitious explanations.

If you model spiritual development with the growth of an individual human, this would put the modern world in their angsty teen years.

I think the modern world will continue to grow and people will realize they shouldn't completely turn their back on spirituality. Once they find the value, they'll start looking into what other/older people have tried to tell us about it all.

I don't know how to start to answer that - it seems pretty important to know what is real and what is imaginary doesn't it?

Meh ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There's a point where seeming real is real enough - and then it doesn't really matter if it is imagined or not.

Like, I don't care if we're really in the Matrix - it's real enough for practical purposes.

Primitive refers to something at a very early stage of development. The ancient beliefs like Christianity are the beginnings of mankind's attempts to understand the world around them and think about meaning. To do it they made up children's stories around the campfires. We've moved on, we don't need the silly stories any more.

At face value, the myths do appear childish and unnecessary. But I don't think they're actually that early in their stage of development. The problem is that spirituality is awfully short on data and it's hard to make sense of it. Still though, there are rewards and value in it and when people realize that then they aren't going to be discouraged by the difficulty anymore. With the desire to search and learn, you can realize that those old childish stories to have some good wisdom buried within them. That's why they're not worth just tossing out.

Edited by New Cat's Eye, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Tangle, posted 09-23-2017 3:40 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2017 11:20 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5101
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 33 of 36 (820686)
09-25-2017 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by New Cat's Eye
09-25-2017 10:46 AM


Re: Primitive Beliefs
NCE writes:

If you model spiritual development with the growth of an individual human, this would put the modern world in their angsty teen years.

A toddler at very best. The enlightenment was only 400 years ago.

I think the modern world will continue to grow and people will realize they shouldn't completely turn their back on spirituality. Once they find the value, they'll start looking into what other/older people have tried to tell us about it all.

Maybe, but it's more likely to be inward looking examining consciousness and feeling rather than outwards to fictional gods.

At face value, the myths do appear childish and unnecessary.

That's because they are!

But I don't think they're actually that early in their stage of development. The problem is that spirituality is awfully short on data and it's hard to make sense of it. Still though, there are rewards and value in it and when people realize that then they aren't going to be discouraged by the difficulty anymore. With the desire to search and learn, you can realize that those old childish stories to have some good wisdom buried within them. That's why they're not worth just tossing out.

There's stacks of wisdom in the biblical stories - some of them at least, but it's got nothing to do with god. You could remove all talk of god from them and the wisdom would remain. That's because all the 'love thy neighbour' stuff is universal. You don't need to be 'spiritual' to appreciate that stuff. But you don't need religion or god to be spriritual at all. It's not something that I have much time for but Sam Harris - one of the four modern atheist - talks about consciouness, meditation and spirituality a lot. No god or religious belief necessary.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/..._Spirituality_Without_Religion


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2017 10:46 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2017 11:53 AM Tangle has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 34 of 36 (820691)
09-25-2017 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tangle
09-25-2017 11:20 AM


Re: Primitive Beliefs
A toddler at very best. The enlightenment was only 400 years ago.

At the toddler stage you just believe what you're told. Its the teenage stage that you think you know better and reject everything. Then when you start getting into adulthood you realize that the stuff you rejected does have value.

Maybe, but it's more likely to be inward looking examining consciousness and feeling...

Well that's where I found my spirituality.

...rather than outwards to fictional gods.

In there I found a being that was distinct and separate from my self - I'll be calling it God, but I don't really know what it was.

Maybe I did imagine it, but it doesn't seem like it, and it does seem real. Real enough to be convincing. Real enough for all intents and purposes.

The benefits I've received from it makes me not really care if it's really real or not.

There's stacks of wisdom in the biblical stories - some of them at least, but it's got nothing to do with god.

Often times yes, but sometimes no. This week's church lesson that my Luthern friend shared with me yesterday was on Matt 20:

quote:
Matthew 20 New International Version (NIV)
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”


When I first found God I thought He was gonna pissed at me for turning my back on Him for so long. That couldn't have been farther from what I actually experienced - I felt open arms and a desire to provide help.

I did think that it was kind of odd that it was as if I had never been gone - and if people like my mother who have been devout their whole lives are getting the same deal then that did feel kind of unfair.

But as the story eludes to: It's God's "money" and he can do with it as He wants - and it's not unfair for Him to be generous even though other people accepted a different deal.

I also like how these old stories still ring a bell today - a company deciding to provide a better wage to unskilled workers is not unfair to the skilled workers who agreed to the wages they previously accepted.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2017 11:20 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2017 12:32 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5101
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 35 of 36 (820696)
09-25-2017 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by New Cat's Eye
09-25-2017 11:53 AM


Re: Primitive Beliefs
NCE writes:

In there I found a being that was distinct and separate from my self - I'll be calling it God, but I don't really know what it was.

Let's face it, your a Buddhist with Christian tendancies.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2017 11:53 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2017 12:42 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11761
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 36 of 36 (820699)
09-25-2017 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Tangle
09-25-2017 12:32 PM


Re: Primitive Beliefs
Let's face it, your a Buddhist with Christian tendancies.

I'm willing to consider it, but I don't know and it'd take some convincing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Tangle, posted 09-25-2017 12:32 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
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