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Author Topic:   YECism: sect or cult?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 23 of 97 (820781)
09-27-2017 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
09-27-2017 9:32 AM


Re: Lets Start With Recent History
One major question that must be answered is whether the idea that there is more than one way to interpret evidence and science is a valid and logical idea.
There are of course multiple ways of interpreting evidence, but with competing models or hypotheses, not all are of equal value.
The differences will lie in their ability to organize and explain relevant evidence, without being contradicted by relevant evidence. The more evidence that can be explained successfully by a model or hypothesis, the more useful it will be. If there are many lines of contradictory evidence, it is almost certain that the model or hypothesis is wrong.
This is where the YEC model runs into problems. For both the age of the earth and a global flood during historic times, there is a huge amount of contradictory evidence and virtually no supporting evidence. It is clear that the YEC model is a religious belief which is adhered to strictly for religious reasons.
To support the YEC model requires ignoring or hand-waving away a huge amount of contradictory evidence. Likewise, the YEC model does a very poor job of organizing and explaining real-world evidence.
That is the sign of a failed model or hypothesis.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 09-27-2017 9:32 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by PaulK, posted 09-27-2017 12:26 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 09-27-2017 6:31 PM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 28 of 97 (820819)
09-27-2017 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
09-27-2017 6:31 PM


Re: Lets Start With Recent History
Creationists ignore contradictory evidence. They have to, because they have no way of countering that evidence, and that evidence disproves their religious beliefs.
This is where creation "science" comes in--it is designed to fool people into thinking that creationists are doing science when in fact they are doing the exact opposite.
To wit: science seeks evidence and follows it where it leads, organizing and explaining it with hypothesis and theory. Creationists only care about supporting their beliefs and scripture and ignore or misrepresent any evidence to the contrary.
Whitcomb and Morris "... argued that the term science could refer only to "present and reproducible phenomena", not to observations made about past events.
Nice work if you can get it. Again a dishonest attempt by creationists to have it both ways, ignoring the evidence which disproves their beliefs and scripture while pretending to accept science and the scientific method.
Preachers are always complaining that scientists are playing God, but all too often, their confusion is the result of preachers playing scientist--The Sensuous Curmudgeon.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 09-27-2017 6:31 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Phat, posted 09-28-2017 3:13 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 36 of 97 (820856)
09-28-2017 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
09-28-2017 7:37 AM


Re: Science or Theology
There is nothing religious about YEC, it's all based on the parts of the Bible that are historical, there is no religion there, just history and the facts described include information about the physical world that can be used in scientific thinking. Where is the religion in any of that? There is none.
Short of religious myth there is no way scientists or anyone else would ever come up with the idea of a young earth. The evidence simply does not lead to that explanation.
Creationists have to contort and misrepresent some of the evidence, ignore the rest of the evidence, and make up their own evidence in order to have "evidence" to support a YEC position.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 09-28-2017 7:37 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 09-28-2017 9:11 AM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 47 of 97 (820880)
09-28-2017 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Phat
09-28-2017 12:16 PM


Re: Science or Theology
What are the sticking points that prevent mainstream science from accepting creation science?
First, creation "science" is actually 180 degrees away from real science in its methods.
Second, its conclusions (actually beliefs) are not supported by evidence.
Finally, many creationists are anti-science, and some are actively trying to destroy those parts of science which disagree with their beliefs.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
In the name of diversity, college student demands to be kept in ignorance of the culture that made diversity a value--StultisTheFool
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other points of view--William F. Buckley Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 09-28-2017 12:16 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Phat, posted 09-29-2017 5:58 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
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