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Author Topic:   YECism: sect or cult?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 55 of 97 (820938)
09-29-2017 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by PaulK
09-29-2017 7:23 AM


Re: Science or Theology
Are you knowingly or unknowingly being deceitful? When discussing science, does the issue of deceit even normally enter anyone's mind or is it all just shop talk?
I hope to get input from both you and Faith regarding your discussion over at "The Flood" deposits as a sea transgressive/regressive sequence ("Walther's Law")
Dont rehash that topic here. I want this topic to address the primary question regarding YEC philosophy and whether it is scientific. Also whether there is deception within the scientific debate and whether there should be deception and bias...is it unavoidable?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by PaulK, posted 09-29-2017 7:23 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 09-29-2017 7:33 AM Phat has replied
 Message 59 by jar, posted 09-29-2017 7:42 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 58 of 97 (820941)
09-29-2017 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by PaulK
09-29-2017 7:33 AM


Re: Science or Theology
Perhaps you were a bit hasty at suggesting she could be a deceiver, even though she implied that no sane mind could fail to see the obvious and by indirect implication, anyone who failed to see the arguments was either deceived or a deceiver.
My goal is to try and separate the science from the personal attacks. We do have some disagreement at this forum, however.
So allow me to ask you a few questions:
  • Is there more than one point of view regarding the interpretation of evidence?
  • Do you have a preconceived bias that all YEC spokesman are dishonest? If so, are they willfully ignorant? (Can anything be meaningfully discussed between both sides?
  • Should we expect both sides to respond to the questions from the other side?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by PaulK, posted 09-29-2017 7:33 AM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 60 by PaulK, posted 09-29-2017 8:14 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 61 by Taq, posted 09-29-2017 11:49 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 64 of 97 (820955)
    09-29-2017 12:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 60 by PaulK
    09-29-2017 8:14 AM


    Creation Ministries International
    Thanks for your honesty. For the record, I have personally never seen any reason to mistrust what you write about...even though you used to frustrate me regarding my beliefs..(though not as much as jar! )As I delve deeper into this sect of scientific creationism, I find that it cuts closer to home than I thought it did. Of course, as I have mentioned here before, I myself am more of a liberal Christian than many of my peers whom I used to attend church with. (I have not been attending lately as my church has moved farther away and I have had to take care of Mom)
    Additionally, I have many beliefs that cannot be scientifically proven.
    Ironically, this is the same situation regarding Biblical Creationism. In my mind, the difference (which I could be justifying to myself) is that evidence is readily available in regards to the earth, whereas it is harder to find solid evidence challenging the Bible.
    The next organization which I am examining is the Creation Ministries International found at creation.com. In reading this article, I’m a New Testament Christian the claim is that the book of Genesis provides the litmus test for the basis of Christian belief. This is precisely what my old Pastor believed. If many of you recall, I defended him for his integrity while still questioning his beliefs.
    Here are some quotes from this article:
    . After all ‘We’re living in light of the revelation of Jesus Christwe don’t need the Old Testament anymore.’ But this is not an idea you would get from the New Testament itself. Biblical Creation actually serves as a kind of litmus test for what someone’s Christian belief is foundationally based upon. Why do we say this?
    The New Testament is replete with references back to the Old Testament, because its history records how God has intervened to bring about salvation for His people. And when it comes to Genesis there are over 100 references; every NT author references Genesis and the Lord Jesus Himself references Genesis on 16 occasions. 1 Obviously, they weren’t just ‘New Testament Christians!’
    Some people think that just focusing on the New Testament will absolve them from dealing with those ‘difficult’ creation passages, such as creation in six days, a global Flood, and a God who is willing to kill many people in judgment. However, the New Testament actually brings out the theological significance of creation and the global Flood even more than the OT passages outside of Genesis, and Jesus spoke more about God’s ultimate judgment and Hell than any other subject in Scripture.(...). After all ‘We’re living in light of the revelation of Jesus Christwe don’t need the Old Testament anymore.’ But this is not an idea you would get from the New Testament itself. Biblical Creation actually serves as a kind of litmus test for what someone’s Christian belief is foundationally based upon. Why do we say this?
    The New Testament is replete with references back to the Old Testament, because its history records how God has intervened to bring about salvation for His people. And when it comes to Genesis there are over 100 references; every NT author references Genesis and the Lord Jesus Himself references Genesis on 16 occasions. 1 Obviously they weren’t just ‘New Testament Christians!’
    Some people think that just focusing on the New Testament will absolve them from dealing with those ‘difficult’ creation passages, such as creation in six days, a global Flood, and a God who is willing to kill many people in judgment. However, the New Testament actually brings out the theological significance of creation and the global Flood even more than the OT passages outside of Genesis, and Jesus spoke more about God’s ultimate judgment and Hell than any other subject in Scripture.
    Thus I find myself faced with questioning more than simply the creationists. I find that the very belief which I was taught and accepted is being presented as the same issue.
    Here the graph shows the Biblical cross references from chaper to chapter. The implication is that one cannot pick and choose what to believe in regarding the Bible.
    I have stated that I dont believe so much in a literal Bible...largely due to many arguments here at EvC, but I am now forced to conclude that not only YEC but all of Biblical Christianity in general has to be includd in this "cult" that we are discussing.
    The wind has gone out of my sails for now....stay tuned

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 60 by PaulK, posted 09-29-2017 8:14 AM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 65 by Taq, posted 09-29-2017 12:17 PM Phat has replied
     Message 66 by ringo, posted 09-29-2017 12:22 PM Phat has replied
     Message 67 by PaulK, posted 09-29-2017 12:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 71 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-29-2017 12:46 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 68 of 97 (820959)
    09-29-2017 12:28 PM
    Reply to: Message 65 by Taq
    09-29-2017 12:17 PM


    Re: Creation Ministries International
    Earlier, I was taught the difference between a premise and an observation. I was curious where I had picked up the idea of starting with a premise...until I read ICR’s Approach to Scientific Investigation which confirms what you have told me and which cuts to the chase about the difference between creation science and mainstream science.
    CRI writes:
    All origins research must begin with a premise.1 ICR holds that the biblical record of primeval history in Genesis 1—11 is factual, historical, and clearly understandable and, therefore, that all things were created and made in six literal days. Life exists because it was created on Earth by a living Creator. Further, the biblical Flood was global and cataclysmic, and its after-effects, therefore, explain most of the stratigraphic and fossil evidence found in the earth’s crust. It is within this framework that ICR research is conducted.
    I am guessing that Faith also adheres to this model and thus refuses to consider any scientific evidence that does not originate from this premise. Just an observation of mine!
    I'm not ready to throw away everything I have been taught to believe, however. Apart from continuing this discussion with you guys, I need to pray.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 65 by Taq, posted 09-29-2017 12:17 PM Taq has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 74 by Taq, posted 09-29-2017 12:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 69 of 97 (820961)
    09-29-2017 12:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 66 by ringo
    09-29-2017 12:22 PM


    Re: Creation Ministries International
    ringo writes:
    Are those actual cross-references or do they include made-up stuff like Jesus being the Messiah?
    Where is your evidence that He was not the Messiah? Quid Pro Quo, Dr.Lector...

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 66 by ringo, posted 09-29-2017 12:22 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 72 by ringo, posted 09-29-2017 12:47 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 70 of 97 (820963)
    09-29-2017 12:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 61 by Taq
    09-29-2017 11:49 AM


    Re: Science or Theology
    You got me curious about Dr.Kurt Wise and so I began my internet search study on him. Despite his valid credentials in learning (Ph.D from Harvard) he states that he literally believes in YEC! I am going to have to study this more...and for the record, yes I am now being fueled by confirmation bias! Pray for me.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 61 by Taq, posted 09-29-2017 11:49 AM Taq has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 73 by PaulK, posted 09-29-2017 12:51 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 77 by dwise1, posted 09-29-2017 2:54 PM Phat has not replied
     Message 81 by dwise1, posted 09-29-2017 6:07 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 76 of 97 (820971)
    09-29-2017 2:35 PM
    Reply to: Message 72 by ringo
    09-29-2017 12:47 PM


    Re: Creation Ministries International
    Quite honestly, I tend to agree--at least partially---with what Wise says. One either accepts evidence as to their primary truth or belief. I have chosen to accept belief---at least in regards to the Bibles overall theme. Sometimes I think I agree with the denialists...this constant attempt to tear apart belief with evidence won't fly with me.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 72 by ringo, posted 09-29-2017 12:47 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 82 by ringo, posted 09-30-2017 11:39 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 83 of 97 (821020)
    09-30-2017 1:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 82 by ringo
    09-30-2017 11:39 AM


    Re: Creation Ministries International
    An elephant sitting on a couch or creationists attempt to label evidence as 6000 years old is not the same thing as a man who once lived, was seen after his death by hundreds of people, and around whom a legend has grown and thrived to the present day. The size of the so-called cult varies depending on whom you ask.
    Most of us see the Branch Davidians, The Comet Followers, the racist group in Kansas who sues everyone and ISIS as definite cults. Fewer of us see YEC Creationism and what jar calls the CCoI with its plethora of prosperity TV Preachers and their blinded audiences with warped messages such as Jennifer LeClaire and her Thumb and Big Toe "Prophecy" (found at 19:13) but this whole silly idea that Jesus never existed and that Long John Silver is as valid of a character as Jesus Christ exposes the sham of relativism and the silly arguments which include spaghetti monsters and hypotheticals from the other side.
    (In case you haven't noticed, I am becoming hysterical like Faith.) Perhaps I am beginning to understand why she types in ALL CAPS at times. Logic will never replace belief. We just have to decide at what level belief should be questioned and at what level it should be ridiculed.
    Hoo Bababa Conga
    Edited by Phat, : added funny song

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 82 by ringo, posted 09-30-2017 11:39 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 84 by ringo, posted 10-01-2017 3:00 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 85 of 97 (821039)
    10-01-2017 3:54 PM
    Reply to: Message 84 by ringo
    10-01-2017 3:00 PM


    Re: Creation Ministries International
    ringo writes:
    Again, the only time belief has any value is when logic can't produce an answer - e.g. when there is no evidence. And even in such cases, you should NEVER act on those beliefs if your actions go against logic.
    Agreed. One thing I will bring up though is that many of the lecturers against Christian Proof and who speak of pro-atheism or skepticism are themselves getting paid on the lecture circuit. They are in some cases as bad as the TV preachers...though a bit saner. Follow the money. William Lane Craig and Richard Carrier get along quite well and together earn notoriety to plug their respective books.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 84 by ringo, posted 10-01-2017 3:00 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 86 by ringo, posted 10-01-2017 3:57 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 87 of 97 (821041)
    10-01-2017 4:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 86 by ringo
    10-01-2017 3:57 PM


    Re: Creation Ministries International
    It shows that an argument can be proven or disproven in a lecture but has little todo with reality. You may *prove* that prayer doesn't work but you won't convince those who believe it does, and they may have many anecdotes and stories and testimonies which might be true yet they will never convince most logically and critically minded thinkers. I suppose I have two points.
    1) One mans proof is another mans fantasy.
    2) Evidence can be subjective if one denies its validity in everyday life. Just ask Dr,Kurt Wise.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 86 by ringo, posted 10-01-2017 3:57 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 88 by ringo, posted 10-01-2017 4:24 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 89 of 97 (821049)
    10-01-2017 4:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 88 by ringo
    10-01-2017 4:24 PM


    Re: Creation Ministries International
    ringo writes:
    If you deny an objective conclusion in spite of the evidence, like Kurt Wise, you're just denying reality.
    No. You are just redefining the reality in which you live. All that it means is that you have to ask the elephant on the couch to move over so that you can watch the football game. We might say that our reality was redefined by the elephant. You may demand to see evidence and we may show you the indentation on the couch and say that its 6000 years old. You really have to talk to the elephant before drawing any further conclusions.
    If you dont hear his trumpeting, its not my fault. He who has an ear...
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 88 by ringo, posted 10-01-2017 4:24 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 90 by xongsmith, posted 10-01-2017 7:33 PM Phat has replied
     Message 93 by ringo, posted 10-02-2017 11:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 91 of 97 (821070)
    10-02-2017 8:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 90 by xongsmith
    10-01-2017 7:33 PM


    Creative Zoo International
    How can you expect an invisible elephant to show visible evidence? We know the elephant sat on the couch because we presupposed that the couch was created specifically for that purpose. Because we know there was an elephant we know that there MUST have been indentations, which any logical observer who believes in the elephant can see. We believe that the elephant is eternally old yet we believe that the couch was created 6000 years ago. NEED I TYPE IN CAPS???

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 90 by xongsmith, posted 10-01-2017 7:33 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 95 by ringo, posted 10-02-2017 11:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 92 of 97 (821076)
    10-02-2017 9:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 84 by ringo
    10-01-2017 3:00 PM


    Re: Creation Ministries International
    Phat writes:
    Logic will never replace belief.
    ringo writes:
    Sure it will. It has for most members of this forum.
    Scientists never believe anything.
    ringo writes:
    Even you have been known to use logic once or twice.
    I do better with humor.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 84 by ringo, posted 10-01-2017 3:00 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 94 by ringo, posted 10-02-2017 11:55 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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