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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House The Trump Presidency

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Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
Taq
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Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1153 of 4573 (818151)
08-24-2017 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1149 by Phat
08-23-2017 11:43 AM


Re: Fake, Wrong, or Hard to know
Phat writes:
What is it that is so important about what we do overseas? Are we afraid that the world will pass us by and deal without us? Is that why we are hunting terrorists and controlling foreign resources?
If the US holds sway overseas then we can change things in our own national interests. In the post WW II era, the US has been a largely stabilizing force (with a few missteps) on the world stage after decades of atrocious and costly wars that spanned the globe.
What would the world look like if the US abandoned this role? Perhaps there would be other major players that would step up and fill that role (e.g. France, UK) in a way that aligned with US values. There could have also been other less desirable nations that stepped forward, such as Russia or China.
Perhaps 100 years ago we could have argued for US isolationism, but I don't think that can be argued anymore. What we have is an international "Game of Thrones", and the one way to guarantee a loss is to not play.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1149 by Phat, posted 08-23-2017 11:43 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1158 of 4573 (818198)
08-24-2017 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1156 by Diomedes
08-24-2017 2:36 PM


Re: very fine people on both sides!?
Diomedes writes:
This also extends to white nationalist's dislike of Jews. While many have Arabic roots, a large number are also of European heritage. But nonetheless, white nationalists pay little attention to that distinction.
In the end, I've always said the following about fanatical redneck white nationalists: they love to be racist. But the only races they can tell apart are Indianapolis and Daytona.
It is less racism and more tribalism. They are against people who aren't rednecks. Say, for instance, that white supremacists take DNA tests to see what their ancestry is. Imagine if some of that DNA turns out to be African? That acutally happened:
When White Nationalists Get DNA Tests Revealing African Ancestry - The Atlantic
They find excuses as to why that DNA might be there, and fellow white supremacists are fine with it. What matters is that they adhere to the same beliefs, and that they can pass for being white.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1156 by Diomedes, posted 08-24-2017 2:36 PM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1160 by 1.61803, posted 08-28-2017 12:52 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1163 of 4573 (818493)
08-29-2017 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1162 by 1.61803
08-29-2017 3:48 PM


1.61803 writes:
What would be a good response in your opinion?
The only real response we have is to continue with the policy of mutually assured destruction, the same policy that got us through the Cold War. The silver lining on this rain cloud is that we probably won't have to fight in any proxy wars with NK.
The only way that NK will move towards disarmament is if China pressures them to. Economic sanctions are only partially effective because China continues economic trade with NK in violation of those sanctions. If we could convince China that they could increase their regional prestige and leadership by disarming NK, perhaps we could see some movement in the right direction.
IOW, there really isn't anything that the US can do, at least directly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1162 by 1.61803, posted 08-29-2017 3:48 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(4)
Message 1207 of 4573 (820747)
09-26-2017 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1206 by Phat
09-26-2017 10:38 AM


Re: Un and Ummer
Phat writes:
My question is this: What real risk is there of a war breaking out?
Pretty low, IMHO. The NK regime knows that war would mean an end to their rule, so they will avoid it at all costs. Their development of nuclear weapons is an attempt to prevent war and prevent other countries from invading. At the same time, they have to maintain the appearance that they are under constant threat of invasion in order to keep an iron grip on power. On top of that, China really doesn't want a war because it will mean 10's of millions of NK refugees flooding into China.
The mistake Trump is making is helping the NK regime look like they are under threat from the US. All they are doing is playing into the propaganda.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1206 by Phat, posted 09-26-2017 10:38 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1210 by Percy, posted 09-27-2017 9:34 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 1227 of 4573 (821104)
10-02-2017 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1226 by Stile
10-02-2017 11:37 AM


Re: People who voted for Jill Stein were tricked, and we are all paying for it
Stile writes:
Hillary didn't lose because a few people voted for Jill or Bernie or anyone else.
Hillary lost because she's not worthy of getting enough votes.
Hillary got 3 million more votes than Trump did. In every single election prior to this one, that would have been enough.
When you boil it down, the election was won/lost on just a handful of votes per precinct in a few states (PA, MI). I would bet a lunch tab that if half the people who voted for third party candidates in those precincts had instead voted for Hillary that she would have won.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1226 by Stile, posted 10-02-2017 11:37 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1228 by NoNukes, posted 10-02-2017 2:43 PM Taq has replied
 Message 1231 by Stile, posted 10-02-2017 3:34 PM Taq has replied
 Message 1235 by RAZD, posted 10-02-2017 4:20 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1229 of 4573 (821113)
10-02-2017 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1228 by NoNukes
10-02-2017 2:43 PM


Re: People who voted for Jill Stein were tricked, and we are all paying for it
NoNukes writes:
But what does seem to be true is that many of those voters are holding anybody except themselves responsible for the outcome of their votes. That's what this portion of the thread, and the similar conversation in another thread, is about.
This is probably one of the poorest analogies I have come up with, but here it goes . . .
"Liberals" who stuck their nose in the air and voted for a third party candidate are like a snotty 10 year old first baseman who starts arguing with the umpire about a call while kids are still rounding the bases and scoring. When the first baseman sees what has happened, he can only blame the umpire again. That's how I view the "Feel the Bern, but not the Blame" crowd.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1228 by NoNukes, posted 10-02-2017 2:43 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1230 by jar, posted 10-02-2017 3:34 PM Taq has not replied
 Message 1232 by NoNukes, posted 10-02-2017 3:48 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1234 of 4573 (821120)
10-02-2017 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1231 by Stile
10-02-2017 3:34 PM


Re: People who voted for Jill Stein were tricked, and we are all paying for it
Stile writes:
Sure.
And if more voted for Trump he would have won by more.
I will stress again that Trump lost the popular vote by 3 million.
And now the Democrats get a message that Hillary (and any other "not good enough" candidate they personally prefer) won't cut it.
The Democrats get a message that they need to listen to their voters.
Isn't that the point of voting?
The point of voting is whatever the voter decides it is. If they want to use their vote as punitive punishment for a perceived slight, then that is their right. If they want to use their vote to help get Trump elected, then that is their right.
However, they can't come back and act as if they had nothing to do with Trump winning, or that they truly thought Jill Stein or Gary "What's Aleppo?" Johnson were a better option than Clinton.
Then, if they did vote for Hillary... and Hillary won... wouldn't that be incredibly stupid? Wouldn't they then have helped put someone in office they didn't want there, and (much worse) indicate to the Democrat leaders that they're doing a wonderful job and should keep heading in the same direction when they think the exact opposite?
That is a terrible use of a vote.
It's short-sighted and can easily be seen as "a waste" (since your actual views got washed away and presumed to be something they're not).
Did they think that Stein or Johnson were a better option than Trump? If so, their vote was worse than a waste. Their vote resulted in someone even worse than Clinton, Stein, or Johnson being elected.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1231 by Stile, posted 10-02-2017 3:34 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1244 by Stile, posted 10-03-2017 10:29 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1236 of 4573 (821128)
10-02-2017 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1235 by RAZD
10-02-2017 4:20 PM


Re: People who voted for Jill Stein were tricked, and we are all paying for it
RAZD writes:
However, rather than dwell on this the DNC should be actively looking for win issues for 2018. So far all they have is medicare for all ... provided by Bernie.
Protecting and improving the ACA in the short term is a winner for the DNC. Medicare for all won't get passed until someone else is holding the VETO stamp in the White House, so it makes Medicare For All a possible argument in 2020. Even then, government run healthcare may not do well with moderate Democrats and independents since it is an easy target for Republicans to campaign against (see Tea Party movement and their big wins in 2010).
Overall, if Dems want to win they are going to have to move towards the center on social issues, IMHO. Society is moving really, really fast and it makes rural America, and Rust Belt America specifically, nervous about where the country is going. They want to know that they haven't been forgotten as once persecuted groups find themselves on equal footing. If there is one thing Hillary showed us is that you can't win the election by relying on a 3 million vote lead from urban America.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1235 by RAZD, posted 10-02-2017 4:20 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1241 by Rrhain, posted 10-03-2017 12:36 AM Taq has replied
 Message 1242 by RAZD, posted 10-03-2017 7:45 AM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1253 of 4573 (821172)
10-03-2017 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1241 by Rrhain
10-03-2017 12:36 AM


Re: People who voted for Jill Stein were tricked, and we are all paying for it
Rrhain writes:
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Democrats win when they actually stand up for the principles they claim they stand for. There's a reason that marriage equality is now a majority-held position when just twenty years ago, it was a big loser. It's because gay people fought and forced people to deal with it. They did *NOT* accept "civil unions." They took them where they could because it's better to have something than nothing, but that never stopped the fight for full equality.
What I am saying is that it isn't a zero sum game. There are people in the US who think that giving someone else rights takes rights away from them, as if there is a Right's Pie that only has a limited number of slices to dole out. We need to show them that this isn't the case. To use an analogy, it's a bit like an older sibling being jealous of the new baby because of all the attention it is getting. We need to sit them down and explain that there is enough love in the family to go around.
What makes "rural America" nervous about where the country is going is the dog-whistles and fear-mongering put forward by the conservatives. We have seen it for centuries:
On the other side they perceive favoritism for minorities and urban ideas that they don't necessarily agree with. Democrats need to work towards more inclusiveness which doesn't require giving up on ideals of equality and protection of minorities.
So your advice that Democrats should pay lip-service to Republican lies is precisely the wrong thing to do.
That isn't my advice. If they are being conned by the Republicans, then Democrats are doing a poor job of getting their message out to those communities.
It simply ensures that the lie lives on. Immigrants did not take your job. Suppose we were to do what Trump wants and manage to deport them all. When you still don't have a job, who are you going to blame next? You think they're going to finally wise up to the idea that it wasn't "immigrants took my job!" but rather something else? That the problem is something much less emotional and concrete like economic policy and Reaganomics that incentivized profits over people?
Or point out that most of those jobs are low paying and labor intensive jobs that they don't want anyway. I don't see a great outcry among white Americans about how hard it is to get a job picking avocadoes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1241 by Rrhain, posted 10-03-2017 12:36 AM Rrhain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1254 by NoNukes, posted 10-03-2017 12:35 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1264 of 4573 (821209)
10-03-2017 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1262 by Phat
10-03-2017 2:55 PM


Re: The Great Tweeter
Phat writes:
Trump tweets how ‘proud’ he is of the US amid tragedies ...
I was more impressed back when presidents could actually give a substantive speech rather than a series of tweets. Communication is increasing exponentially in quantity while decreasing severely in quality.
I think that what we are seeing is someone who has never had to worry about money a day in his life, and lacks the empathy required to understand how it would be if he had to worry about money or the basic necessities of life. IOW, he doesn't give a shit and has never had to.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1262 by Phat, posted 10-03-2017 2:55 PM Phat has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 1277 of 4573 (821302)
10-05-2017 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1276 by Stile
10-05-2017 9:44 AM


Re: People who voted for Jill Stein were tricked, and we are all paying for it
Stile writes:
But that's all avoiding the general point. The general point is that the Falcons didn't win. The Falcons were not good enough to win the Superbowl in that game.
If I am allowed to further strain your analogy, it would be a bit like saying the Falcons were not good enough to win the Superbowl even though they scored more points than the Patriots.
I know that the President is elected by the Electoral College and all that stuff, but it is hard to ignore the feeling that there is something inherently unfair about the process. In the last two decades there have been two cases where Democrats have garnered more votes and still lost. To use your analogy, it's as if the Falcons have to be ahead by two touchdowns in order to be crowned champs while the Patriots simply have to be within 14 points in order to win.
But this is really just bitching and moaning about a process that was already in place. However, it has resulted in a situation where the sitting President didn't even get a plurality of votes, much less a majority.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1276 by Stile, posted 10-05-2017 9:44 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1279 by Stile, posted 10-05-2017 11:24 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1283 of 4573 (821335)
10-05-2017 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1279 by Stile
10-05-2017 11:24 AM


Re: People who voted for Jill Stein were tricked, and we are all paying for it
Stile writes:
Unless you're suggesting that it's impossible for the reverse situation to occur?
Is it impossible for people to vote in such a way that the Republicans get the majority of votes, but they don't win because the Democrats were elected due to the Electoral College? I am assuming that this is possible, and in this sense the election process is still "even."
The electoral college nearly guarantees that less populated states (i.e. rural) have more influence in the electoral college than more populated states (i.e. urban). There is an interesting chart in this article if you are interested. Therefore, the party that appeals to rural America will have an inherent edge when it comes to the electoral college.
Could party affiliation flip between the Dems and Reps with respect to rural and urban America? I guess it could, but that doesn't change the facts in the reality we find ourselves in now.
Also, it's completely tangential to the point that it's possible for a 3rd party vote to have valid meaning, even if it helped Trump win.
What we are arguing is:
1. Is the cost of making the point worth it.
2. Is it a good point to begin with.
As Percy said earlier, it is a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1279 by Stile, posted 10-05-2017 11:24 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1284 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2017 8:50 PM Taq has replied
 Message 1319 by Stile, posted 10-11-2017 9:14 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1285 of 4573 (821368)
10-06-2017 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1284 by New Cat's Eye
10-05-2017 8:50 PM


Re: People who voted for Jill Stein were tricked, and we are all paying for it
New Cat's Eye writes:
How would you know except in hindsight?
There was always a non-zero probability that voting for a 3rd party candidate would get Trump elected. Spending 5 seconds thinking about the situation would tell you that voting for Jill Stein was increasing Trump's chances of winning.
It is.
It isn't. Boy, that was easy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1284 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2017 8:50 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1286 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-06-2017 11:34 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


(2)
Message 1288 of 4573 (821382)
10-06-2017 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1286 by New Cat's Eye
10-06-2017 11:34 AM


Re: People who voted for Jill Stein were tricked, and we are all paying for it
New Cat's Eye writes:
Yes, as I said: there's risk. But still, whether or not the point is worth the risk is up to the individual, and they should decide how they cast their vote.
IOW, they knew the risk and they did it anyway. Instead of voting for a flawed Democrat they contributed to electing an incompetent Republican by voting for a candidate they really didn't want anyway. Good job!!
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1286 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-06-2017 11:34 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1289 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-06-2017 1:27 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10045
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 1292 of 4573 (821394)
10-06-2017 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1289 by New Cat's Eye
10-06-2017 1:27 PM


Re: People who voted for Jill Stein were tricked, and we are all paying for it
New Cat's Eye writes:
You contribute to an election by voting for a candidate. Voting for Candidate 3 does not contribute to the election of Candidate 1.
George HW Bush would disagree.
And you're making assumptions about what they want anyway - so that's beside the point.
I highly doubt that a significant portion of Bernie supporters would truly prefer Trump over Hillary, but I could be wrong.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1289 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-06-2017 1:27 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1296 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-07-2017 12:09 AM Taq has not replied
 Message 1315 by Minnemooseus, posted 10-09-2017 7:03 PM Taq has not replied

  
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