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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
PaulK
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Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 166 of 1540 (821415)
10-07-2017 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by kbertsche
10-07-2017 6:24 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Of course the point of bringing up contradictions is to deny the assertion that the Bible is literally inerrant. Which the original readers of the works which make up the Bible would likely not have assumed in the first place. And that includes the New Testament books.
Then again asserting that the contradictions are illusions of "anachronistic" thinking is one thing. Actually showing that it is true is another - and it would hardly be the first time that you had made a false assertion on those lines.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by kbertsche, posted 10-07-2017 6:24 AM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 6:56 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 167 of 1540 (821416)
10-07-2017 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Paboss
10-07-2017 1:58 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
If God exists at all, he gave us curious minds and an appetite for answers, so there is not reason not to want to make questions.
This is not exactly true. We are not as God originally created us, nothing in this world is, the world is under the curse of the Fall, the disobedience of our original parents. He may bless us with accurate knowledge if we have a humble respect for Him, but if we trust in ourselves instead, He may leave us to our own devices, which means leaving us to the errors we are prone to make through our unaided fallen minds. How long did it take humanity to arrive at any decent method of scientific inquiry? That should be a clue to our fallenness, and when we did arrive at a decent science that may very well have been due to the scientists who respected God so that He led them to effective methods.
Yes God could lead us in science too if we respect Him, pray to Him, but again, He has given us one divinely inspired source of knowledge, the Bible, and it is extreme folly to rip it apart with our broken minds.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Paboss, posted 10-07-2017 1:58 AM Paboss has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 168 of 1540 (821417)
10-07-2017 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by PaulK
10-07-2017 6:46 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
I've been impressed with how kbertsche has been getting to the heart of the matters being discussed here, both in raising the question of whether the original readers would have seen contradictions in the Bible, and earlier in saying both the Arminian and Calvinist views are in the Bible when I was stumbling around the question.
Unbelievers are always seeing contradictions in the Bible and lies in the simple statements of believers. Evidence of the fallen mind it seems to me.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by PaulK, posted 10-07-2017 6:46 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by PaulK, posted 10-07-2017 7:10 AM Faith has replied
 Message 173 by jar, posted 10-07-2017 9:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 169 of 1540 (821418)
10-07-2017 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
10-07-2017 6:56 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
quote:
I've been impressed at how kbertsche has been getting to the heart of the matters being discussed here, both in raising the question of whether the original readers would have seen contradictions in the Bible, and earlier in saying both the Arminian and Calvinist views are in the Bible when I was stumbling around the question.
The first hardly gets to the heart of the matter - in fact the question of whether they would care seems more important. The redactor of Genesis, for instance, does not seem to have worried about having two clearly different creation stories or merging two differing Flood stories.
The second is quite obvious to anyone who looks into the matter. Indeed, I pointed out much the same thing and gave a link to a Wikipedia page briefly discussing the issues before he posted. And it's not the first time. Doing better than you is not impressive,
Then we have all his refusal to accept solid refutations of his arguments in the other threads.
quote:
Unbelievers are always seeing contradictions in the Bible and lies in the simple statements of believers. Evidence of the fallen mind it seems to me.
That is because there are contradictions in the Bible and because "believers" quite often make obviously false assertions - which they have no excuse for believing. You could, perhaps argue that the latter is a consequence of the believer's "fallen minds" but I doubt that your pride would let you admit to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 6:56 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 7:15 AM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 170 of 1540 (821419)
10-07-2017 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by PaulK
10-07-2017 7:10 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
There are not two different creation stories, there is one creation story followed by a discussion of an aspect of the creation. This and the ridiculous notion that there is more than one Flood story in the Bible are evidence of fallen minds doing their destructive work on God's truth.
Oh, and humility is shown in deferring to God, certainly not in putting trust in your own fallible mind. That is the essence of pride.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by PaulK, posted 10-07-2017 7:10 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by PaulK, posted 10-07-2017 3:53 PM Faith has not replied

  
Paboss
Member (Idle past 1765 days)
Posts: 55
Joined: 10-01-2017


(1)
Message 171 of 1540 (821420)
10-07-2017 8:35 AM


Faith writes:
Let me put it this way: There are no SIGNIFICANT contradictions, that change any important meanings.
Significant or not that is not the problem. If you read a History book that says that some event took place in 1921 and later says that the same event happened in 1922 you would doubt the reliability of the author, and rightly so. Why won’t you hold your god up to higher standards?
Faith writes:
For all I know all those "contradictions" are there just to keep some people away from it
Doesn’t God want to save everybody? Why mislead people?
Kbertsche writes:
Paboss, do you think the original readers would have perceived contradictions in the Bible?
It seems to me that most of the supposed contradictions in the Bible are of our own making, due to reading anachronistically. If we apply 21st century western standards to first century (or earlier) middle-eastern writings, we will misread them.
The Bible would have been put together long after the original readers had gone through the separate texts that made it up, so I guess they may have not perceived some of the contradictions. Take for example Acts 9:7 where Paul falls to the ground as Jesus appears to him. It says that the people present with Paul heard a voice but saw no one. In Acts 22:9, they saw a light but did not hear a voice. Do you think it read differently back in the first centuries? As far as I can tell it simply is two different versions of an alleged event recorded by different persons, and whoever put it together did not bother checking for consistency.
Faith writes:
This is not exactly true. We are not as God originally created us, nothing in this world is, the world is under the curse of the Fall, the disobedience of our original parents. He may bless us with accurate knowledge if we have a humble respect for Him, but if we trust in ourselves instead, He may leave us to our own devices, which means leaving us to the errors we are prone to make through our unaided fallen minds. How long did it take humanity to arrive at any decent method of scientific inquiry? That should be a clue to our fallenness, and when we did arrive at a decent science that may very well have been due to the scientists who respected God so that He led them to effective methods.
Yes God could lead us in science too if we respect Him, pray to Him, but again, He has given us one divinely inspired source of knowledge, the Bible, and it is extreme folly to rip it apart with our broken minds.
Even if what you say was true, still our fallen minds are all we have to find answers. Shutting down our fallen minds as you suggest would still have us killing ourselves over religious disagreement. I heard someone on a debate, I think it was Bill Nye, who said that one the first to develop and practise the scientific method where Christian scientists trying to find God in nature, but much to their disappointment the evidence they found led elsewhere.

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 8:54 AM Paboss has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 172 of 1540 (821421)
10-07-2017 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Paboss
10-07-2017 8:35 AM


there is no contradiction in the Bible about historical dating, and I don't "hold" God to any standard, that would be the height of arrogance against God, He IS the standard and He holds US accountable, not the other way around. the right way to read the Bible is to let it read us. Even you if you wanted to could prove that there are no contradictions in the Bible, so I assume you don't want to, you prefer to trust your own fallible mind.
No we don't only have our fallen minds, we have God who will answer sincere prayers for understanding, truth, wisdom, knowledge.
abe: I'm not talking about shutting down our minds, just realizing they are fallible, and submitting to God so that He can correct our thinking. /abe
Those Christian scientists misread the evidence, trusting the evidence through their own minds I suppose rather than seeking God to explain it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Paboss, posted 10-07-2017 8:35 AM Paboss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by GDR, posted 10-07-2017 10:41 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 173 of 1540 (821422)
10-07-2017 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Faith
10-07-2017 6:56 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
LOL Too too funny.
Faith, thank you for confirming that there are contradictions in the Bible.
Faith writes:
I've been impressed with how kbertsche has been getting to the heart of the matters being discussed here, both in raising the question of whether the original readers would have seen contradictions in the Bible, and earlier in saying both the Arminian and Calvinist views are in the Bible when I was stumbling around the question.
ROTFLMAO
If both positions are in the Bible then that is a contradiction.
It really is that simple Faith.
And second, the original readers would have never even considered that there was such a thing as a Bible. That is a much, much, much, much, much later human creation.
The original readers would have seen a collection of stories, each independent and pretty much unrelated to the others. That is why there really are no references to Jesus in the Old Testaments. Any such associations are simply stuff made up by folk long after the original authors or readers were dead and buried.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 6:56 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 10-07-2017 12:13 PM jar has replied
 Message 186 by kbertsche, posted 10-07-2017 2:18 PM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 174 of 1540 (821428)
10-07-2017 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
10-07-2017 8:54 AM


Faith writes:
Those Christian scientists misread the evidence, trusting the evidence through their own minds I suppose rather than seeking God to explain it.
But Faith, the mind is a gift of God. Why would He give us the minds that we have if we aren't intended to use it in terms of understanding the biggest issue we have to deal with? (Are we the result of intelligence, and if so what is the nature of that intelligence and what does that mean to our lives.)
The Bible is a library of books, inspired but not dictated by God, of the progressive revelation of mankind to our understanding of that big question, with the climax of the narrative being the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Now, as humans we are to use the gift of the mind to understand what that narrative says to us, just as Paul, the first major theologian, did nearly 2000 years ago.
When you take the focus off of Jesus and put it on an inerrant Bible you wind up missing the message that God wants us to get from the Bible.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 8:54 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 11:09 AM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 175 of 1540 (821430)
10-07-2017 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by GDR
10-07-2017 10:41 AM


Those Christian scientists misread the evidence, trusting the evidence through their own minds I suppose rather than seeking God to explain it.
But Faith, the mind is a gift of God. Why would He give us the minds that we have if we aren't intended to use it in terms of understanding the biggest issue we have to deal with? (Are we the result of intelligence, and if so what is the nature of that intelligence and what does that mean to our lives.)
I already answered this more than once in the last few posts, so I guess you didn't read any of it? Our minds are not as He originally created them. I try to imagine what they must have been like originally and they must have been powerhouses intimately connected to God. But now they are damaged by the Fall. But if we pray for help, sincerely trust and respect God, He will guide us, but if we just trust in our ability to think without His help, no, we can't count on getting things right. If we could count on that why is there disagreement on everything?
The Bible is a library of books, inspired but not dictated by God,
Being inspired by God ensures it contains the truth, and the writers of every one of those books was inspired by God. "All scripture is God-breathed..."
...of the progressive revelation of mankind to our understanding of that big question, with the climax of the narrative being the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Now, as humans we are to use the gift of the mind to understand what that narrative says to us,
But not without being soaked in prayer and humbly distrustful of our own raw thoughts...
...just as Paul, the first major theologian, did nearly 2000 years ago.
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.
When you take the focus off of Jesus and put it on an inerrant Bible you wind up missing the message that God wants us to get from the Bible.
The Bible is the way we find out about Jesus, it's how we know anything at all about Him, you cannot know Him without the Bible as our guide. Your accusation that it is "bibliolatry" to use the Bible as our only route to knowledge of God. It's like saying we don't need to go to school, we can know everything without any teaching. The Bible introduces us to Jesus, but after you have that relationship you still have to have the Bible to be sure you are actually having that relationship and not just making it up. Bible believers don't miss anything, but you can get yourself deceived by your way of thinking.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by GDR, posted 10-07-2017 10:41 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Phat, posted 10-07-2017 11:56 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 184 by GDR, posted 10-07-2017 12:34 PM Faith has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 176 of 1540 (821434)
10-07-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Faith
10-07-2017 6:14 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Faith writes:
As Pascal said, it has enough light for those who believe, and enough obscurity to keep the insincere away (or keep them in the dark or something like that).
Or vice versa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 6:14 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 177 of 1540 (821435)
10-07-2017 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Faith
10-07-2017 6:50 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Faith writes:
We are not as God originally created us, nothing in this world is, the world is under the curse of the Fall, the disobedience of our original parents.
There you go, contradicting the Bible again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 6:50 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Phat, posted 10-07-2017 11:58 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 178 of 1540 (821436)
10-07-2017 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Faith
10-07-2017 11:09 AM


Soaked In Prayer or Drowning in Willful Ignorance?
LOL...This is a classic! Faith, we love you! From this day forward I will always make sure I am soaked in prayer!! And yes I am being serious! I am not out to disprove anyone..but I need to clarify my own position and others here at EvC Forum help me to do just that! Jar and I have had some classic rounds over the past 10 years, and if you peruse the archives you will see that I was very similar to you in my beliefs early on in the forum.
Jar used to frustrate the heck out of me, and more than once I even accused him of being inspired by satan! It became my mission to challenge and disprove everything that he talked about, and yet even as my own belief became stronger, it also became weaker. You never let this happen to you, however. You simply ignore any confrontational argument...at least publically. I have watched you battle it out with Percy and have even watched the forum gang up on you yet you would never take the time to learn their arguments well enough to even attempt to refute them.
Your passion has been apparently Biblical Creationism, yet you have never been able to explain the method, process, or means that anything could have happened. I too was frustrated when I could never even get so far as to explain to jar or to anyone else what Jesus is alive in my heart even meant.
Ringo also frustrated me because he never even allowed himself to take my original assumptions about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit seriously. Some days I came to the forum soaked in prayer...up to the gills! They would simply challenge me with logic, reason, and reality. I had a choice...at that point to either ignore what they said or try to express my bias in a new and more creative way...a process that continues to this present day. If being soaked in prayer and reading the Bible counted for wisdom, I would have begun to actually win a few arguments. Yet it has never happened with me nor with you, I CANT, jaywill,GDR, or kbertsche...though I see some progress with GDR and kbertsche regarding their arguments.
Why do you think this is? Is it them or is it us???? After all, we too have fallen minds...and being soaked in prayer does not make us infallible.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 10-07-2017 11:09 AM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 179 of 1540 (821437)
10-07-2017 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by ringo
10-07-2017 11:51 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
How is she contradicting the Bible? There are children of the light and children of the darkness. Enmity between two seeds.
You better go let your head soak a while longer!
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by ringo, posted 10-07-2017 11:51 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by ringo, posted 10-07-2017 12:18 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 180 of 1540 (821439)
10-07-2017 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by jar
10-07-2017 9:17 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
jar,replying to Faith writes:
The original readers would have seen a collection of stories, each independent and pretty much unrelated to the others. That is why there really are no references to Jesus in the Old Testaments. Any such associations are simply stuff made up by folk long after the original authors or readers were dead and buried.
Logic tells me that I won't understand God any better by reading Confucious, Mencias, or Mark Twain.
You have apparently read the Bible several times, yet it has not made you any closer to GOD has it? All that happens is that you get more cantankerous and clever with logic, reason, and reality. How can humanity begin to understand the message that Jesus tells us any better?
I have gone and fed, clothed and comforted many people but all that I learned was that more needs to be done and that the rich always keep their money and the poor widows have to use their last two mites to give anyone any spare change.
Why do you think I get frustrated at watching the United States self-destruct?? You were right about one thing---this whole Christianity gig is hard work...and often thankless.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 10-07-2017 9:17 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by ringo, posted 10-07-2017 12:19 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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