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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1469 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3
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That's not the question I asked.
...in the human perspective God wants to save everyone and in God's perspective that's not true at all. Perhaps you can explain how they could both be true. Or even how there could be a "different perspective" on that question.
Try again. Edited by PaulK, : Fixed tag
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1
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Faith writes: ... and so to prevent them from transgressing you kill them, including their infants. Loving your neighbor does require the punishment of transgressors to keep your neighbor from committing them. Look at Jesus. He said that the way to defeat the Romans was to love them, turn the other cheek, go the extra mile etc. The point being that to defeat evil you change hearts with the one weapon that can actually do that, and it is as Paul says in Ephesians 6: quote: You cannot reconcile worshiping an inerrant reading of the scriptures with worshiping Jesus as the embodied Word of God. God resurrected Jesus, He didn’t resurrect a book. The Bible is however a gift from God that if understood properly, as Jesus did, will speak to our hearts and minds. Also again of course you duck the question of why God didn’t just slaughter the enemies of the Israelites Himself.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Percy Member Posts: 22489 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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Faith writes: Often what looks at first like a contradiction is really a matter of context. Often what looks like a contradiction is a contradiction.
Arminian concepts relate to the human perspective for instance, while Calvinist concepts describe God's perspective,... Calvinism describes God's perspective? Man claiming to know how God sees things? Really, this is Calvinism?
...so there is no contradiction. Both are true. Well, there's an indefensible position. The Wikipedia article on the History of the Calvinist—Arminian debate goes on for pages and pages, but you think both are true? That's ridiculous. This little difference seems particularly hard to resolve:
quote: So in Armninius's view the Calvinist God is evil, but in the Calvinist view God is not evil. Please explain how both are true? --Percy
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I haven't the slightest cognitive dissonance about the Flood or the inerrancy of the Bible. There's no point in "entertaining" a contradiction of either notion when I know it is false. It has nothing to do with being "threatened," or even to do with anything I WANT to be true, it's just that I know what I know. As a Christian representing Gods Word, you simply must respond in science and evidence-based forums. To fail to do so is dishonest and reflects poorly on the Christ within you.
Walthers Law How would you like it if it is someday discovered that RAZD, Tangle, and many others who may have accepted Jesus based on seeing honesty in you instead rejected Him due to your behavior?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1469 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I disagree, Phat, I do not have to subject the Bible to scientific inquiry. There is nothing dishonest about that stance, and I find your attitude reprehensible. A radical stand for God against all the compromising nonsense you are always flirting with shouldn't dissuade anyone from Christ.
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Phat Member Posts: 18332 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The key issue is honesty versus silence. If people see us as honest they will be more likely to forgive us for disagreeing with them. If they only get silence and refusal to answer, it shows poorly on the character of Christ. IMHO anyway.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1469 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
There is a proverb that advises not answering fools.
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Percy Member Posts: 22489 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
I just became aware of your Message 6 when Phat just replied to it.
Faith writes: I haven't the slightest cognitive dissonance about the Flood or the inerrancy of the Bible. You not only have cognitive dissonance about the Flood and Biblical inerrancy versus the real world, you even have cognitive dissonance about your cognitive dissonance. Your definition of faith is unfortunate for you, since it requires that faith be supported by evidence, because the real world is not going to accommodate you.
There's no point in "entertaining" a contradiction of either notion when I know it is false. Except that when you seek evidence to support your faith in your beliefs, it isn't there. You're instead forced to concoct fantasy scenarios that send you into a cognitive dissonance so extreme that you reject not just reality but even simple common sense.
It has nothing to do with being "threatened," or even to do with anything I WANT to be true, it's just that I know what I know. What people know is based upon evidence, and you have no evidence.
My beliefs regarding Islam are also a matter of objective truth... Your beliefs regarding Islam are biased, bigoted, and unbecoming as a Christian.
...and have nothing to do with any personal attitude toward Muslims,... Oh, sure, I'm sure everyone here has no trouble believing that your attitude toward Muslims is any more Christian than the attitude you display toward anyone here who dares to disagree with you. --Percy
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
I'm pretty sure that doesn't mean running away from perfectly sensible points you can't answer. Nor does it include trying to cover up that fact by whining about "personal attacks" when your running away gets mentioned.
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Percy Member Posts: 22489 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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Faith writes: I disagree, Phat, I do not have to subject the Bible to scientific inquiry. Of course you have to "subject the Bible to scientific inquiry," or at least academically rigorous analysis. As you've reminded us many times, the faith you have in your beliefs must be backed by evidence, and the production and/or identification of evidence requires scientific or academic rigor.
There is nothing dishonest about that stance,... Well, if not dishonest it is at least contradictory.
...and I find your attitude reprehensible. Well of course you find Phat's attitude reprehensible. He's disagreeing with you, something you won't tolerate without berating and excoriating.
A radical stand for God against all the compromising nonsense you are always flirting with shouldn't dissuade anyone from Christ. "Radical" isn't the adjective I'd apply to your "stand for God". Unchristian fits much better, especially for a position constructed so well to give people a picture of Christianity as a vehicle of hate and intolerance. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22489 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0
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Faith writes: There is a proverb that advises not answering fools. <me not answering> Seriously, if the evidence is on your side, why your reluctance to discuss it? Why all the anger in the face of disagreement? Why all the hate of other theologies and religions? Why never any hint of the Christian principles of love and humility? Could your lack of answers be forcing you down other avenues? --Percy
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GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Faith writes: There is a proverb that advises not answering fools. Is this issue I last raised in post #197 one that you would categorize that way?
GDR writes: Also again of course, you duck the question of why God didn’t just slaughter the enemies of the Israelites Himself. You consistently won't deal with that issue. One other question I have for you. On what grounds is it that you believe in an inerrant understanding of the Scriptures? What causes you to hold so firmly to that belief?He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1469 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Phat, I started the policy of refusing to answer or even read posts from people who attack me personally and won't apologize. That policy is still in force and now your obnoxious personal attack on me means I'm ignoring you tool
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1469 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
My understanding is that the Israelites represent God's own army against evil, and that when Jesus returns all those who belong to Him will become part of that army against the demonic hordes that have ruled the world until then. He could always do all of it Himself, He doesn't need anyone. He could also send all of us to Hell but He chose to send a Savior.
There is no value to a Bible that is not inerrant. "All scripture is God-breathed" is enough evidence for me. And God has the power to do it. If I had to listen to preachers picking and choosing the way you do I would never be a Christian at all. You accuse me of worshiping the Bible which is totally false, but what you do by picking and choosing is put your own fallen mind in the place of God. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2157 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
PaulK writes:
Here's my try at a brief explanation of the apparent contradiction between God's sovereign choice and our free will:
That's not the question I asked. ...in the human perspective God wants to save everyone and in God's perspective that's not true at all. Perhaps you can explain how they could both be true. Or even how there could be a "different perspective" on that question. Try again.
God's DESIRE is that all would be saved (2 Pet 3:9). But people don't want salvation (Rom 1:18-32); they prefer darkness to light (Jn 3:19). Left to their own, no one would be saved. So, by His mercy, God has DETERMINED to save some people, even though none of us deserve it. Why does God only save some, but not all? Is He being unjust? It may seem so, but we can't see the whole picture. Paul addressed this apparent injustice directly in Rom 9:14-24, implying that it may be too hard for us to understand, but that God's actions are perfectly just. Both God's choice and our free will are taught in the Bible. Both are suggested in one verse, in fact:
quote: Again, I see this apparent contradiction between God's choice and our free will as analogous to wave-particle duality. We tend to think that waves and particles are completely different from one another, and that an electron or photon cannot be both at the same time. But the data shows us otherwise. We need to be honest with the data, even though it may not make sense to our intuition and may seem to be an apparent contradiction. In the same way, if the biblical data is clear on an issue of apparent contradiction, we need to be honest with the biblical data, whether it is the dual human-divine nature of Jesus, the unity-Trinity of God, or God's choice and our free will regarding salvation."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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