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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 201 of 1540 (821497)
10-08-2017 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Faith
10-08-2017 3:33 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
The key issue is honesty versus silence. If people see us as honest they will be more likely to forgive us for disagreeing with them. If they only get silence and refusal to answer, it shows poorly on the character of Christ. IMHO anyway.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 3:33 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 3:42 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 220 of 1540 (821555)
10-09-2017 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Percy
10-09-2017 10:43 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Here is an interesting article from Charisma News. Is Giving Someone the ‘Silent Treatment’ Really Like Witchcraft?
quote:
"Did you know the silent treatment (which is the stubborn refusal to talk to someone, especially after a recent argument or disagreement) is a form of witchcraft? Witchcraft is sometimes a spiritual force, but it's also a work of the flesh listed in Galatians. Intimidation is a form of fleshly witchcraft. Purposely ignoring people to 'teach them a lesson' can be a form of fleshly witchcraft. Manipulation tactics, like pouting and crying to get people to do what you want or make them feel guilty, are forms of fleshly witchcraft. I can tell you this, folks won't get far with Spirit-led Christians playing those sorts of flesh-driven games. We'll pray for you but we won't bow to manipulation. 1 Samuel 15:23... Rebellion to God's Word is the sin of witchcraft. Trying to punish people with manipulation is rebellion. Can somebody say amen?"
"For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry" (1 Sam. 15:23)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Percy, posted 10-09-2017 10:43 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Faith, posted 10-09-2017 11:56 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 225 by jar, posted 10-09-2017 12:59 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 227 of 1540 (821565)
10-09-2017 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by jar
10-09-2017 12:59 PM


Re: why Spirit-led Christians are so utterly ineffective.
I'm just pointing out what Charisma Magazine says. I could be willfully ignorant of the reality of human psychology, yet I have studied psychology myself and dont conflate it with what has been taught spiritually by Christian commentators.
Just as we cant use physics to explain belief, we really cant honestly say that any personality quirks are demonically (or angelically) inspired.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by jar, posted 10-09-2017 12:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by jar, posted 10-09-2017 4:27 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 238 of 1540 (821583)
10-09-2017 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by PaulK
10-09-2017 12:45 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
PaulK writes:
The question isn't how God chooses but why God would choose some and not others at all.
The only sense I can make out of Calvinism as a doctrine and method is that telling people that God does the choosing is like telling your kids that if they don't go to bed the boogie man will get them. Other than that I agree that Calvinism, as marketed, makes no sense. In my belief, God is more than fair and the choice between salvation and damnation rests in that mystery known as communion...between our human minds and Gods mind.
Original Sin is not a logical belief. I would go so far as to say, however, that Original Tendencies more closely approximates my view. Accepting Christ is a bit like allowing an expert to walk you through the manual. You don't need the expert per se, but if you then misread the manual, it's all YOUR fault for ignoring the expert in the first place.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by PaulK, posted 10-09-2017 12:45 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 241 of 1540 (821655)
10-10-2017 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Tangle
10-09-2017 5:51 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
People are just not like this.
What...you dont think we consciously choose to be either mostly selfless...considering the needs of others before ourselves OR selfish...looking out for #1?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Tangle, posted 10-09-2017 5:51 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Tangle, posted 10-10-2017 3:12 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 248 by ringo, posted 10-10-2017 12:08 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 244 of 1540 (821662)
10-10-2017 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Percy
10-10-2017 8:58 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Tangle writes:
We don't just choose to be either naughty or nice, like a computer programme. Nor do we stay in one format all the time. We're not binary. GDR language here is pure religious babble that bears no resemblance to how we know we work....
I'm starting to agree with the idea that there is no black and white dichotomy in human morality. I used to firmly believe in the all or nothing pronouncement of saved or lost but am now more comfortable with the honest realization that I could be both!
Percy writes:
To embrace a particular interpretation of any particular Biblical narrative is a conceit that you've chosen the correct version of God while others have not.
I used to defend this accusation by stating that one has to either stand for something or they will fall for anything! but I am now realizing that I actually stand for many things and fall for many things every day and that it is overall a learning process.
GDR writes:
Philosophy and theology don’t have the benefit of particle colliders.
Percy writes:
Well, yes, exactly, and the reason why is a key point. They're missing the tools of evidence for a very good reason - they're fictional.
I'm not entirely in agreement there. Critics will say that I need my beliefs as a crutch and I will concede that they are right. I simply could never even imagine being an atheist! The implications are chilling to me personally. This does not imply that I don't respect them, however. And again...here we go with the whole us and them thing. I keep needing to remind myself that it is WE.
And the word fictional is illogical to my conclusions. *hugs teddy bear tighter!*
Perhaps I am scared that if I dont stand for Jesus I will fall for atheism! *ponders*
Percy writes:
The moral spirit of Jesus (or Buddha or Gandhi) doesn't really need a religion.
This point agrees with Ringos mantra that values the message above the messenger. My response has always been to declare that the messenger is the message, and I think that GDR agrees with that as well. Great discussion, though!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Percy, posted 10-10-2017 8:58 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 10-10-2017 11:20 AM Phat has replied
 Message 270 by Stile, posted 10-11-2017 11:16 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 247 of 1540 (821668)
10-10-2017 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by jar
10-10-2017 11:20 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
jar writes:
Yet you can never explain what that even means.
True, but I'm getting better. In addition, I feel that I can almost explain what you think it means. Please don't tell me that I need to throw the messenger away however. That always causes me great anxiety.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by jar, posted 10-10-2017 11:20 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 10-10-2017 12:18 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 250 of 1540 (821673)
10-10-2017 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by jar
10-10-2017 12:18 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
For one thing, it means that I have to do the whole job myself without any help. Its like when I was a kid and boasted that my Dad could beat up your Dad and yet deep down probably knew that my Dad would never show up to validate my aggression.
I realize that you believe that true Christianity is not easy,...it is hard work and we are charged to do it ourselves.
It would be nice to get some help though. When I was growing up my Dad always had a spare $20.00 bill for me when I needed one. Why can't God be the same way? Does'nt anybody realize that I'm getting older and weaker and can't do what I once did? What sort of a tough love God do we have, anyway?
Edited by Phat, : added

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by jar, posted 10-10-2017 12:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by Tangle, posted 10-10-2017 12:32 PM Phat has replied
 Message 257 by jar, posted 10-10-2017 1:07 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 252 of 1540 (821679)
10-10-2017 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by Tangle
10-10-2017 12:32 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Thanks for that dose of cynicism! Makes me feel a whole lot better! You believe that there is no rescuer. And if I give up hope I too can be glad to be in touch with reality, eh? How encouraging!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by Tangle, posted 10-10-2017 12:32 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by ringo, posted 10-10-2017 12:46 PM Phat has replied
 Message 255 by Tangle, posted 10-10-2017 12:52 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 254 of 1540 (821683)
10-10-2017 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by ringo
10-10-2017 12:46 PM


And yet another thing for the record
Noah didn't have to do anything! He chose to do it because he was obviously an animal lover. The rest of us drowned though.
This whole argument is all about having to do everything ourselves or receiving help.
I vote help. That's one reason I am a believer.
It seems that counting on people isnt enough.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by ringo, posted 10-10-2017 12:46 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 10-10-2017 12:53 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 258 of 1540 (821688)
10-10-2017 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by jar
10-10-2017 1:07 PM


Are We Talking About Having Faith Or Being Faithful?
This is all true. The question we had, however, was whether the messenger was, in fact, the point of the message or whether we ourselves were the point of the message. Can we do it without Him? Was that His message all along?
Edited by Phat, : sub title

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by jar, posted 10-10-2017 1:07 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Tangle, posted 10-10-2017 3:09 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 260 by jar, posted 10-10-2017 4:10 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 265 of 1540 (821700)
10-11-2017 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by jar
10-10-2017 4:10 PM


Re: Are We Talking About Having Faith Or Being Faithful?
Oh C,mon. You know exactly what I'm talking about!
Remember your exchange with Joe Wood? The Nehi Soda?
He had a bucket with cokes and Nehi orange and grape soda and we'd sit side by side at a table and just talk. I remember telling him that "Jesus died for my sins and so if I believed in Him I was saved." and his laugh before he said, "Well, then I guess all this is a waste of time isn't it?"
....The messenger is Jesus. The message is the Death, Burial, and Resurrection. Of course, you disagree. Christianity is about what YOU do. That's your basic argument. While the other view is that Christianity is about what He did.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 10-10-2017 4:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 10-11-2017 9:51 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 267 of 1540 (821704)
10-11-2017 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by jar
10-11-2017 9:51 AM


Re: Are We Talking About Having Faith Or Being Faithful?
You might wonder why i go off on these rabbit trails every few years or so. The truth is that my brain is locked into a pattern that always repeats itself and that in this pattern I prefer fantasy over reality. I think you have taught the message well over the years and that if I yearn for easy answers and get out of hell free cards its basically my own fault. I think it all started when i was young. The rescue always came sooner or later. I expect Jesus to provide the same thing.
Hou taught me well enough to make the choice between relief and responsibility. The brain pattern is real, however. Biblical Christianity can be an addiction.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by jar, posted 10-11-2017 9:51 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 10-11-2017 10:28 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 286 of 1540 (821807)
10-12-2017 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Faith
10-12-2017 10:03 AM


I've Fallen And I Cant Get Up
Im still coming to grips with the whole idea of Fallen Minds and Regenerated Minds.
When I first got saved, I had no doubt that the doctrine was sound. Thats how it was taught to me. There were too many loose ends, however.
  • If my mind was indeed regenerated, and became stronger through Bible reading and prayer, why did I need human teachers at all?
  • If people such as the members of EvC all had fallen minds, why were their arguments--not to mention their empathy, patience, and altruistic behavior better in many ways than the self proclaimed Christians at this forum?
  • If a mind was regenerated, why would such a mind shy away from evidence and reasoning so as to teach others?
    ringo writes:
    How can you know whether the Bible is true or not if you don't understand it?
    Its not so much the book itself being true...except in context. Its about the God within the book being more than simply a character in the book. Granted there is no easy way to objectively test this.
    ringo writes:
    You can't look at anything honestly without doubting that it's true.
    Supposedly this regeneration that Faith talks about removes all doubt. Personally, I prefer the word "questioning" rather than "doubting" because I wouldnt bother reading the book at all if I doubted it.
    Percy,to Faith writes:
    But you can't substantiate your premise that the Bible is God's word.
    What we could do as individuals is to start with the observation that our mind had in fact been regenerated. I recall when I felt this way, but it may well have been a subjective experience which I recall observing. It most definitely felt real, however.
    You can't even substantiate your premise that God exists.
    Good point. All I know is that He exists when I'm in trouble...at least in my mind and heart. He is nearly impossible to objectively substantiate for teaching others, however. The best way that I can attempt to do this is to model my own behavior as if he lives within me so as to teach by example. At best, this simply reflects my character, however...not so much His character.
    Percy writes:
    If you have a fallen mind, how can you know whether any judgment you make is true, including the judgment that the Bible is inerrant?
    Faith writes:
    I have a regenerated mind, or what is sometimes called a "sanctified" mind, which is given to believers by God and permits us through the Holy Spirit to ascertain divine truths.
    ...I'm going to leave that one alone.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 281 by Faith, posted 10-12-2017 10:03 AM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 288 by Faith, posted 10-12-2017 11:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 291 by PaulK, posted 10-13-2017 1:53 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 298 by ringo, posted 10-13-2017 11:46 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 299 of 1540 (821836)
    10-13-2017 12:12 PM
    Reply to: Message 296 by Percy
    10-13-2017 8:48 AM


    Re: This is not the time to question the premise
    Percy writes:
    ...A paraphrase of Hebrews 11:1, which descends into nonsense by 11:3 ("...things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.")....
    I always thought this implied that material objects were made of atoms.. but that was simply my interpretation of that verse.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 296 by Percy, posted 10-13-2017 8:48 AM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 301 by ringo, posted 10-13-2017 12:45 PM Phat has replied
     Message 312 by Percy, posted 10-13-2017 6:30 PM Phat has not replied

      
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