Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 7/1


EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House The Trump Presidency

Summations Only

Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 532 of 4573 (800855)
03-01-2017 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 531 by jar
03-01-2017 6:14 AM


Re: Trump Willing to Compromise on Immigration
As Newt Gingrich said back when he actually was a power to be reckoned with, the Party that puts a Universal Health Care system in place will hold the power for at least two generations.
Indeed, if he can bully republicans and democrats into a bipartisan immigration reform (there are old bills he can revive) AND get universal healthcare, then he will likely be reelected by a landslide.
But what souls will need to be sold to get there from other progroms.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 531 by jar, posted 03-01-2017 6:14 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 533 by jar, posted 03-01-2017 9:55 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 534 of 4573 (800861)
03-01-2017 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 533 by jar
03-01-2017 9:55 AM


Re: Trump Willing to Compromise on Immigration
If he is smart then the cost will be from programs where the damage can be hidden for decades. ...
Looks like his attempt to take money out of State Dept for "soft tools" (humanitarian programs to bolster US image) is a big failure with top GOP being against it
quote:
Trump pitches 37 percent cut to State Department budget
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) on Tuesday said he would oppose drastic cuts to the State Department.
Probably not, he said when asked if Congress could pass a 37 percent reduction at the department, according to Fox News.
Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) earlier Tuesday noted the importance of the State Department's foreign aid to America’s domestic safety.
Outside the US so most (Trump base) Americans likely to think it's no big deal (the "why should we give aid to X when veterans are on the street" crowd)
Enjoy
'

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 533 by jar, posted 03-01-2017 9:55 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 566 of 4573 (801564)
03-07-2017 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 565 by jar
03-07-2017 5:23 PM


Re: From Today's Scientific American
The bright spot in all this is that the rest of the world can get along just fine without the US and in fact will be happy to see the US bow out as a developed Nation and remain on the sidelines.
Indeed, why should scientist stay here when they can do real science elsewhere.
Why should any students study science here when they can do more cutting edge science elsewhere.
How many generations will it take to completely emasculate knowledge?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 565 by jar, posted 03-07-2017 5:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 567 by jar, posted 03-07-2017 6:05 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 575 of 4573 (801772)
03-09-2017 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 573 by Phat
03-09-2017 2:14 PM


Re: From Today's Scientific American
And you think that we would not fight becoming a class of exploited workers?
quote:
Declaration of Independence
... Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. ...
With what I see on the ground, and how far this administration is pushing the limits, it could be sooner rather than later.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 573 by Phat, posted 03-09-2017 2:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 598 of 4573 (802441)
03-16-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 597 by jar
03-16-2017 7:38 AM


Re: Trump Travel Ban Part Deux
Trump Travel Ban Part Deux
Don't you mean pas de deux?
Well Trump travel ban The Sequel has been halted before it began and so far in two courts. But some parts were left intact and those are among the more frightening.
Of course, that fear mongering is part of the plan, always has been.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 597 by jar, posted 03-16-2017 7:38 AM jar has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 602 of 4573 (802467)
03-16-2017 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 599 by Dr Adequate
03-16-2017 2:56 PM


I'm surprised at how long it took someone to recognize that pattern. He is a little boy seeking attention ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 599 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-16-2017 2:56 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(6)
Message 883 of 4573 (810886)
06-02-2017 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 882 by jar
06-02-2017 3:03 PM


Re: Trump pulls the US out of Paris Climate agreement
It is the 50th anniversary of the Sargent Pepper Lonely Hearts Club Band release in the US, so in honor of that we have the proverbial Fool on the Hill ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 882 by jar, posted 06-02-2017 3:03 PM jar has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 1202 of 4573 (820429)
09-20-2017 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1193 by riVeRraT
09-07-2017 6:27 PM


Re: Bernie Sanders on The Late Show
We are a Republic, not a democracy.
I first heard this silly statement back in the '80's ... as if this made it better to be a republican than a democrat.
One can just as easily say (and with more truth and honesty -- see the preamble to the constitution) that we are a union and not a corporation.
That's a good one, the socialist is going to explain to us the greatest dangers to our democracy.
So you don't think turning the US into an Oligarchy run at the whim of corporations is the greatest danger to our democracy ... what do you think is, then?
... Except they are buying the democrats, and the republicans. AKA the globalists.
You mean the corporation oligarchy? They already own all the republicans and the "elite" democrats, so why would you vote for any of them?
... But that other 30% is way off, enough to destroy America. ...
Can you enlighten me on what that is?
... That's why he gets attacked from both sides. Basically
Except that it is two factions of the same side, the republicans and the DINO (republican lite) neo-liberal (lead by Hillary) that are all owned by corporation donations.
BTW, Hillary now blames Bernie, and Obama for her loss.
Indeed, she blames everyone but herself. Just as narcissistic as Trump. She failed to connect with the voters, period. What an embarrassment for the DNC.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1193 by riVeRraT, posted 09-07-2017 6:27 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(4)
Message 1221 of 4573 (821025)
09-30-2017 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1216 by Minnemooseus
09-30-2017 5:06 AM


Re: People who voted for Hillary were tricked, and we are all paying for it
People who voted for Jill Stein were tricked, and we are all paying for it
One could also say that people who voted in the primaries for Hillary were tricked (hoodwinked), and we are all paying for it. She was selected, nominated and elected by the corporate controlled DNC, not by people.
Curiously I predicted in July that if the DNC picked Hillary that she would lose to Trump. The reason I did so was because of the independent vote, the vote of people not hog-tied to either party and which have been the deciding votes in the last several elections. The independent voters were cut out of most primaries, and so we did not get their voices in selecting a candidate.
Back in a pre-election topic, I advocated voting for Hillary as "the lesser of two evils". In hindsight, I wish I had phrased that "the lesser of two undesirables". Anyway, when given that reality of two real choices, I think one needs to vote for the "(considerably) lesser of two undesirables", least you get the "greater of two undesirables".
Strongly disagree.
That is precisely the process that has given us Trump. If not this cycle then the next, because US politics has been circling the drain for decades now.
Nobody is entitled to my vote just because the other candidate is worse. The person that is entitled to my vote is the one who earns it.
Do you vote to die by mass conflagration or slow starvation? Neither candidate saw climate change as a challenge, neither candidate saw income inequality as a major problem, neither candidate saw a minimum living wage as critical, neither candidate would commit to universal healthcare for everyone. People were underwater and neither party cared.
Going third party (or for the guy who couldn't possible win) is like saying "Hillary or Donald - It really doesn't matter".
In the long run it doesn't -- burn or starve.
I know if I hadn't voted Hillary in Minnesota, and Trump had won the state, I would be feeling pretty stupid.
And yet it did not make any difference, did it?
Not because people voted for Jill Stein, but because people did not vote for Hillary ... because she did not earn their votes. Blaming anyone else is a fool's game and it doesn't help to reform the democrat party -- they think they are doing a swell job.
You don't get change voting for the lesser evil, you just get evil or lesser (slower) evil (but still evil), and eventually you end up in the same place.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1216 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-30-2017 5:06 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1223 by Phat, posted 10-01-2017 10:01 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1225 by Rrhain, posted 10-02-2017 6:15 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1291 by dronestar, posted 10-06-2017 4:16 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1235 of 4573 (821122)
10-02-2017 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1227 by Taq
10-02-2017 1:17 PM


Re: People who voted for Jill Stein were tricked, and we are all paying for it
When you boil it down, the election was won/lost on just a handful of votes per precinct in a few states (PA, MI). I would bet a lunch tab that if half the people who voted for third party candidates in those precincts had instead voted for Hillary that she would have won.
No question, but the real question is why the DNC/Hillary did not attract their votes. If people are going to vote for their best interest then it is incumbent on the candidate to appeal to those voters by having issues they want to see enacted. What interests did they have that Clinton did not fulfill.
Until they figure out what they did wrong they will not earn those votes.
I have seen a number of cases where Trump voters were sorry they voted for him.
I have not heard of any cases of Stein voters that were sorry they voted for her.
I also found it curious that Stein was the only candidate to challenge the vote tally in those critical states, and they did uncover some shenanigans ...
However, rather than dwell on this the DNC should be actively looking for win issues for 2018. So far all they have is medicare for all ... provided by Bernie.
enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1227 by Taq, posted 10-02-2017 1:17 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1236 by Taq, posted 10-02-2017 5:00 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 1240 by Rrhain, posted 10-03-2017 12:22 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1242 of 4573 (821146)
10-03-2017 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1236 by Taq
10-02-2017 5:00 PM


Re: People who voted for Jill Stein were tricked, and we are all paying for it
Protecting and improving the ACA in the short term is a winner for the DNC. Medicare for all won't get passed until someone else is holding the VETO stamp in the White House, so it makes Medicare For All a possible argument in 2020. Even then, government run healthcare may not do well with moderate Democrats and independents since it is an easy target for Republicans to campaign against (see Tea Party movement and their big wins in 2010).
Disagree, it is more important than ever to win seats in the senate and the house. The dems need to think beyond the 4 year presidential cycle. Senate seats won in 2018 would last until 2024, house seats would be a continuing battle.
Also important is to win state elections so that pressure from the states can be applied.
Overall, if Dems want to win they are going to have to move towards the center on social issues, IMHO. ...
In my opinion that is why Hillary lost -- too close to republicans to make a distinction. I think she lost millennial votes to Stein over climate change issues, so climate change should be a big issue for 2018 and later.
I also think she lost voters over minimum wage and Wall Street issues, being too wishy washy on the first and not taking a strong stand on restoring controls on Wall Street. The impression a lot of people got was that those Wall Street speeches were placating the bankers that she would not go after them.
... Society is moving really, really fast and it makes rural America, and Rust Belt America specifically, nervous about where the country is going. They want to know that they haven't been forgotten as once persecuted groups find themselves on equal footing. If there is one thing Hillary showed us is that you can't win the election by relying on a 3 million vote lead from urban America.
Indeed, and that means going after rapacious banks and investors that tanked the system so that people lost homes and retirement funds, it means living security issues like a living minimum wage and paid family leave. It means restoring and extending Glass Steagall (not saying what we have is good enough).
It means tax reform that benefits the workers.
It means safe affordable housing.
It means things important to working people rather than corporations and banks.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1236 by Taq, posted 10-02-2017 5:00 PM Taq has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1272 of 4573 (821262)
10-04-2017 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1270 by NoNukes
10-04-2017 1:52 PM


Re: Tillerson says Trump is a moron???
When asked directly whether he called Trump a moron, Tillerson said the following
quote:
"I'm not going to deal with petty stuff like that, this is what I do not understand about Washington
Nice to know his staff understands him ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1270 by NoNukes, posted 10-04-2017 1:52 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1302 of 4573 (821484)
10-08-2017 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1301 by New Cat's Eye
10-08-2017 12:00 PM


People who voted for Jill Stein were voting for their preferred candidate
I'm going to throw a comment in here to see if anyone gets it.
Once a candidate gets 51% of the votes in a district all other votes for that candidate are irrelevant.
Thus people in heavily favored democrat or republican districts can cast votes for candidates they like instead for the lesser evil.
But those won't send as strong a message to the parties as votes in swing states.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1301 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-08-2017 12:00 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 1314 of 4573 (821577)
10-09-2017 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1310 by coffee_addict
10-09-2017 2:04 PM


People who voted for Jill Stein exercised their right to vote how they wanted
No, the protest vote people were also to blame.
But it wasn't a protest vote.
Permit me to go out on a limb and invoke godwin's law to make my point bleedingly obvious.
So you admit a losing argument. Interesting.
Let me go out on a limb and compare all the democrats who feel the need to insult people who didn't "fall in line" and vote for their candidate to sheep herders and thinking people are sheep to be herded. That isn't freedom.
The whole point of a free election is to be able to vote for the person of your choice, and if you throw that away, then what do you have left? It ain't democracy.
People who blame Jill Stein are trying to find an excuse for losing, rather than trying to fix the problems, and that only leads to having the same problems in the next election.
The problems revolve around issues and the way they are presented to people, not just in glossy ads but in actions. There were pictures of Bernie on the lines marching for $15/hr minimum wage. Clinton wanted $12/hr in the first debate. Democrats don't seem to have any idea how big this issue is to working people of all political persuasion, or they just don't care. You have to be seen out in front on the issues not dragged along by others. Leaders lead.
The problems also revolve around candidates being beholden to rich donors rather than to voters. Bernie proved there is an alternative, and democrats should listen, because people don't want corporate owned candidates on either side. They don't want Wall Street running the country.
People voted for Trump because they had their homes and life savings taken away by the bank crash, and have had to sit by and watch everyone else get bailed out, and the democrats ignored the issue.
Don't blame Jill Stein, blame the democrats, the DNC and Wasserman-Schultz and Clinton for waging a losing myopic self-centered campaign.
Don't blame people for voting their conscience, rather than look at why the campaign failed. Blaming others (and there is quite a list, not just Jill Stein voters) for you loss while failing to look in the mirror is another failure in the making. It certainly does not unite the party.
You can't fix a problem until you define what the problem is and then look into how to change that.
Democrats have yet to take that step, and so the campaigns for 2018 will be insipid, shortsighted and prone to failure.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1310 by coffee_addict, posted 10-09-2017 2:04 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1343 of 4573 (821833)
10-13-2017 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1341 by NoNukes
10-12-2017 8:46 PM


Re: Quality vs popularity vs systemic problems in picking candidates
... the Democratic candidate needed to be something pretty effing special to win. ...
The problem is deeper than the presidential general election (and the electoral college) ... it comes down to how candidates are picked and the single vote methodology used.
Any time you have more than two candidates and a system with only one vote for one choice you can end up with a Trump candidate even when the majority of voters would prefer someone else -- because their votes are divided by the other candidates. With 3 candidates you can have a 40-30-30 split, where people in the 30 groups would prefer the other 30 group's choice (as 2nd choices) over the 40 groups choice.
Do you prefer candidate A or candidate B ?
Do you prefer candidate B or candidate C ?
Do you prefer candidate C or candidate A ?
vs\ "A" "B" "C"
"A" -- 40 45
"B" 60 -- 60
"C" 55 40 --
totals 115 80 105
Candidate "A" wins in this system (and even "C" beats "B"), when "B" would win by the current simple majority one vote system. A system where "B" is the winner is obviously flawed.
Using this system in the primaries would (a) encourage more than 2 candidates to run and (b) provide candidates that are more of a consensus candidate for the party, the one the most people would agree with. The primaries could use this system to "winnow the chaff" candidates that get the least votes, and they could use it in the primaries to select the best consensus candidate. And the second best would be the ideal choice for veep imho. That would consolidate the party. This is also closer to what the founding fathers originally intended for POTUS and Veep.
Obviously if this was also done in the general election, then there would be no such thing as "spoiler" candidates and the people who voted for Jill and Johnson would have their alternate choices counted ... at which point there would be no cause for democrats to blame Jill Stein for their loss. You also would have seen a lot more votes for Jill Stein ... and for Johnson.
In addition, the perfect time and place to sort these votes out would be with the electoral college.
It is not the third parties that are the problem, and it is not the electoral college that is the problem, it is the way we vote and how the votes are counted that are the problem ...
... and this also gets us to the "winner take all" part of the problem -- it effectively nullifies the votes for all the other candidates in each state. This is where the electoral votes diverge from the popular votes to the extreme seen in the last election.
How votes are cast and counted is not covered by the constitution, it is decided by the states and the parties (in the primaries).
How votes are cast and counted is the problem.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1341 by NoNukes, posted 10-12-2017 8:46 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024