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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 246 of 1540 (821667)
10-10-2017 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Faith
10-08-2017 3:42 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Faith writes:
There is a proverb that advises not answering fools.
What it says is:
1. Don't let fools get away with broadcasting foolishness.
2. Don't be foolish in refuting foolishness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Faith, posted 10-08-2017 3:42 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 248 of 1540 (821669)
10-10-2017 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Phat
10-10-2017 2:25 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Phat writes:
What...you dont think we consciously choose to be either mostly selfless...considering the needs of others before ourselves OR selfish...looking out for #1?
Most of us do both in the same day. You can donate to charity and buy yourself a new toy with the same chequebook.
There are not two separate groups of people, which is why God choosing one group makes no sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 2:25 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 253 of 1540 (821681)
10-10-2017 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Phat
10-10-2017 12:40 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Phat writes:
You believe that there is no rescuer.
Even Noah had to build his own ark.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 12:40 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 12:50 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 256 of 1540 (821685)
10-10-2017 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Phat
10-10-2017 12:50 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Phat writes:
Noah didnt have to do anything!
And neither do you. You can choose to drown.
But if Noah didn't want to drown he !@#$ing well DID have to build his own ark - and so do you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Phat, posted 10-10-2017 12:50 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 277 of 1540 (821728)
10-11-2017 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 272 by Faith
10-11-2017 11:31 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Faith writes:
I understand the term "questioning" to be used in the sense of doubting that the Bible is telling the truth. Not understanding it or having problems with some of its concepts are perfectly normal attitudes everybody goes through.
How can you know whether the Bible is true or not if you don't understand it? You can't look at anything honestly without doubting that it's true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by Faith, posted 10-11-2017 11:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Faith, posted 10-11-2017 4:36 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 279 of 1540 (821734)
10-11-2017 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by Faith
10-11-2017 4:36 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Faith writes:
Starting from the premise that the Bible is God's word....
Why would you start from that premise?
Faith writes:
... a very different perspective than the attitude here that our own judgments are true and the Bible is at fault.
But you are starting from the attitude that your own judgement is true. You've judged a priori that the Bible is God's word - and you've gone in circles from there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Faith, posted 10-11-2017 4:36 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 298 of 1540 (821835)
10-13-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Phat
10-12-2017 9:31 PM


Re: I've Fallen And I Cant Get Up
Phat writes:
Im still coming to grips with the whole idea of Fallen Minds and Regenerated Minds.
The idea of "fallen minds" is the most grotesque lie in the pack of lies that is the Fall doctrine. It's a direct contradiction of what God said. Adam and Eve used their minds for the first time when they disobeyed God.
The only way to have a "fallen mind" is to park it at the door.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Phat, posted 10-12-2017 9:31 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by Coyote, posted 10-13-2017 12:29 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 303 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 2:39 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 301 of 1540 (821838)
10-13-2017 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Phat
10-13-2017 12:12 PM


Re: This is not the time to question the premise
Phat writes:
I always thought this implied that material objects were made of atoms.. but that was simply my interpretation of that verse.
I suppose it could be reverse-engineered that way - but what it actually says is that God magically poofed the material objects into existence with His words. Notice that in verse 5 Enoch was magically poofed out of existence instead of dying. That doesn't imply anything about atoms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Phat, posted 10-13-2017 12:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Phat, posted 10-13-2017 2:33 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 322 of 1540 (821891)
10-14-2017 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by Phat
10-13-2017 2:33 PM


Re: The Poof Is In The Pudding
Phat writes:
Atoms make the most sense to me. They are what makes up things that are seen and yet they themselves are unseen.
It may make sense now but the question is: Did the concept of atoms even occur to the writers of the New Testament? It seems unlikely.
As I pointed out, verse 3 says that the universe was created by God's words, which are unseen. And as New Cat's Eye pointed out, the broader context is about faith, which is unseen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Phat, posted 10-13-2017 2:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 323 of 1540 (821892)
10-14-2017 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 303 by Faith
10-13-2017 2:39 PM


Re: I've Fallen And I Cant Get Up
Faith writes:
Seems to me the fallen mind must possess a mere shadow of its original powers of understanding and knowledge.
You're contradicting God. He said that Adam and Eve had become more like Him. That's an increase in understanding, not a decrease.
Faith writes:
Since the regeneration of the new birth gives us the intuitive knowledge of the basic truths of the Christian revelation, there must originally have been an ability to intuitively grasp all kinds of truths we no longer possess.
Since your premise is wrong, your conclusion is unreliable - a sure sign of an "unregenerated" mind.
It's funny how self-styled Christians claim to have a superior understanding when they can't even read their own Book.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 2:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Faith, posted 10-14-2017 12:43 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 325 of 1540 (821896)
10-14-2017 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Faith
10-14-2017 12:43 PM


Re: Carry on without me
Faith writes:
You are not in a position to say the premise is wrong.
Sure I am. The premise is a direct contradiction of your own Book, which you claim is inerrant. If the Book is right, there was no Fall; there was no degeneration to regenerate. The Fall was made up by humans.
Faith writes:
However, again, the logic is correct for the premise as given.
Since the premise is wrong, it doesn't even matter if the logic is correct. You might as well say, "Since all dogs are black, France doesn't exist." Garbage in, garbage out.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Faith, posted 10-14-2017 12:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 340 of 1540 (821929)
10-15-2017 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 338 by Phat
10-15-2017 1:12 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Phat writes:
Of late, I am leaning towards the belief that honesty is truth.
That doesn't work. Lots of people honestly believe things that are not true.
I would say rather that truth is verifiable. If you can't show "the truth" to somebody else and have them agree that it's true, you can't claim that it is true, no matter how honestly you wish it was true. (And you can't pick and choose who agrees with you either. It has to be a transparent process.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 1:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 2:20 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 342 of 1540 (821933)
10-15-2017 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by Phat
10-15-2017 2:20 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Phat writes:
I disagree. Not all truth is verifiable...as least initially. Sometimes you gotta choose a road without knowing the final destination.
That has nothing to do with truth. Sure, sometimes you have to choose a road - and sometimes you'll choose the wrong road.
We're talking about faith here - i.e. people refusing to accept the road signs because of their faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 2:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 354 of 1540 (822008)
10-17-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by GDR
10-16-2017 5:43 PM


Re: Evolving theology
GDR writes:
The only distinction that I would make is that the term risen could I think also be applied to Lazarus which was not the same thing as resurrection.
You're just muddying the water. Lazarus did resurrect but he didn't ascend. Enoch ascended without resurrecting because he didn't die.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by GDR, posted 10-16-2017 5:43 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by GDR, posted 10-17-2017 1:30 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 366 of 1540 (822068)
10-18-2017 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by GDR
10-17-2017 1:30 PM


Re: Evolving theology
GDR writes:
Jesus' was resurrected with a renewed body that is not subject to a later death.
I was just pointing out what the words actually mean. Your made-up special meaning for Jesus' resurrection is not valid.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by GDR, posted 10-17-2017 1:30 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by GDR, posted 10-18-2017 9:50 PM ringo has replied

  
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