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Author Topic:   Elections are won in the primaries
DC85
Member
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 61 of 113 (821741)
10-11-2017 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by RAZD
10-11-2017 2:48 PM


Re: Is "too liberal" even a thing in the US?
quote:
Exactly, just as it is easier to run as a democrat than a republican in RI and MA, and so we have a lot of DINOs in the state legislature.

The big issue still comes back to organization and money, While Sanders proved small money can produce, you still need a backbone a core to orchestrate this on the level you're talking about. Sure it can start slow a few having success this way but you're talking about spoiling Bannon here and now. We need our "new" Republicans now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by RAZD, posted 10-11-2017 2:48 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by RAZD, posted 10-12-2017 7:40 AM DC85 has not yet responded

    
DC85
Member
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 62 of 113 (821742)
10-11-2017 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by NoNukes
10-11-2017 5:35 PM


Re: Voting for republicans options in the primaries
quote:
You don't seem to get it. I am not going to vote for or pursue pushing a Republican who is going to act with other Republicans on some of the issues that you find tolerable. Because I find those positions intolerable.

Your mileage may vary.


You don't seem to get what he's saying. Rather run a progressive in a Republican primary and you spoil the primary as you can win after the vote splits far right /established

Edited by DC85, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by NoNukes, posted 10-11-2017 5:35 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by NoNukes, posted 10-11-2017 7:39 PM DC85 has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10127
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 63 of 113 (821750)
10-11-2017 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by DC85
10-11-2017 5:59 PM


Re: Voting for republicans options in the primaries
"Rather run a progressive in a Republican primary and you spoil the primary as you can win after the vote splits far right "

I discussed with RAZD the baggage that comes with a Republican candidate. He seems to think that some of that baggage is acceptable. I agree in principle, but I don't agree with RAZD's take on what is acceptable.

I barely trust the Democrats...

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by DC85, posted 10-11-2017 5:59 PM DC85 has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 64 of 113 (821767)
10-12-2017 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by NoNukes
10-11-2017 5:35 PM


Re: Voting for republicans options in the primaries
You don't seem to get it. I am not going to vote for or pursue pushing a Republican ...

It's not a republican, its a progressive candidate running in the republican primary ... because whoever wins the republican primary is virtually guaranteed to win the general election.

Gerrymandering shifts the actual election to the primary, so to beat the nasty republicans you have to run in their primary ... and get all the democrat/liberal/progressive/independent/etc people in the district to register republican and vote in the primary for the faux republican candidate.

Sheesh.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 65 of 113 (821773)
10-12-2017 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by DC85
10-11-2017 5:51 PM


Re: Is "too liberal" even a thing in the US?
Sure it can start slow a few having success this way but you're talking about spoiling Bannon here and now. We need our "new" Republicans now.

Indeed. I've talked to some democrat party people about it but interest seems low. Maybe after they lose in 2018 and Bannon wins and things get worse they might start thinking.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by DC85, posted 10-11-2017 5:51 PM DC85 has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2171
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 66 of 113 (821817)
10-13-2017 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by RAZD
10-11-2017 12:13 PM


Re: Is "too liberal" even a thing in the US?
Well. in response to the title - I am likely considered too liberal considering I am DSA, but that is not the point I want to address.

RAZD, I have been somewhat following this thread and feel I understand how your strategy may be successful under some circumstances. However, I believe those circumstances are not presently as universal as you may believe.

You are In Rhode Island, not West Texas, so I would like to point out some other factors that diminish the strategy you propose in my situation.

These are the questions I would have to answer Yes to to have a snowball's chance in hell of even being a viable candidate for school board in this county:

1) Were you born in Howard County?
2) Have you lived in Howard County your entire life?
3) Are you a Southern Baptist or Church of Christ member in good standing who attends church regularly?
4) Do you like country music?
5) Are you a registered Republican and have been so your entire life?
6) Are you connected to the petroleum industry or cotton farming?
7) Do you have any vices? Do you smoke, drink, or do illegal drugs?

Here are my answers:

1) No, I was born in Fresno County, California in 1957.
2} No, not even the majority. My formative years were spent in San Luis Obispo County, California in the 70s. The minute I retire, the skidmarks I leave in getting the hell out of Texas will be noticeably visible until the road is repaved.
3) While a Methodist, Lutheran. or Presbyterian, may have an outside chance, they will be starting with one strike against in some voter's minds. Mandatory church attendance is non-negotiable around here. The best I could do is Unitarian Universalism, a deal breaker.
4) No, not in general. Shit, I am a deadhead (among other things), an immediate disqualifier.
5) No, not ever.
6) I am a librarian, worse I am a male librarian, which makes my masculinity and sexual orientation questionable around here.
7) , critically read the above.

As you can see, any following of your strategy on my part would be impossible under the circumstances and it would be quite difficult even to find a proxy

My current purpose is to shift the Democratic Party to the left, at least for now, given the circumstances.

However there is a possibility for me to invoke your strategy in a statewide election. Dan Patrick is running for the Democratic nomination for the Governor's race in Texas, an automatic vote in the general. Should he be a shoe-in, there is one of those rare but purportedly reasonable Republicans running in their primary namely Scott Milder (oh, the irony), that due to considerable favorable remarks on the liberal side, might have my vote if Patrick is well ahead in the polls. Since this is an open primary state, in this one instance your strategy might be workable for my support.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by RAZD, posted 10-11-2017 12:13 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by RAZD, posted 10-13-2017 8:32 AM anglagard has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 67 of 113 (821828)
10-13-2017 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by anglagard
10-13-2017 2:46 AM


Re: Is "too liberal" even a thing in the US?
RAZD, I have been somewhat following this thread and feel I understand how your strategy may be successful under some circumstances. However, I believe those circumstances are not presently as universal as you may believe.

You are In Rhode Island, not West Texas, so I would like to point out some other factors that diminish the strategy you propose in my situation.

Both Texas and RI are more like the middle situation, gerrymandered to provide a majority in every district.

Texas is a lost cause in my book, I'm looking at states that are heavily gerrymandered so that a minority wins, the right hand situation. Like North Carolina and Michigan.

An independent commission charged with creating districts so that representatives reflected the diversity of the population would make it so there would be two yellow districts and three green districts, as any other alternative favors one party over the other disproportionately to the population.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by anglagard, posted 10-13-2017 2:46 AM anglagard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by DC85, posted 10-13-2017 4:12 PM RAZD has responded

  
DC85
Member
Posts: 875
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 68 of 113 (821850)
10-13-2017 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by RAZD
10-13-2017 8:32 AM


Re: Is "too liberal" even a thing in the US?
Texas is a lost cause in my book, I'm looking at states that are heavily gerrymandered so that a minority wins

Texas is HEAVILY gerrymandered and isn't nearly a given for a "conservative" in parts of the state as people think it is.
( http://www.latimes.com/...as-gerrymander-20170711-story.html )


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by RAZD, posted 10-13-2017 8:32 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Coragyps, posted 10-13-2017 9:11 PM DC85 has not yet responded
 Message 70 by RAZD, posted 10-15-2017 2:41 PM DC85 has not yet responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5299
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 69 of 113 (821874)
10-13-2017 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by DC85
10-13-2017 4:12 PM


Re: Is "too liberal" even a thing in the US?
Agreed. Dallas, Houston, Austin, San Antonio, and the Valley can all go pretty D. Here in Anglagard's and my corner of the state, not so much. Like 85% for Dubya the second time! But we're going to fight the fight....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by DC85, posted 10-13-2017 4:12 PM DC85 has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 70 of 113 (821935)
10-15-2017 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by DC85
10-13-2017 4:12 PM


Texas ...
Texas is HEAVILY gerrymandered and isn't nearly a given for a "conservative" in parts of the state as people think it is.

So there is hope. And another place to try Faux Republican Progressive candidates ...

But my personal opinion is that districts need to be abolished altogether and a different metric used to select representatives, one that will reflect the diversity of the population, for instance one that results in half women and half men, one that reflects minorities in proportion to their population, one that reflects different economic levels.

Perhaps by lottery ... with 3 year term, 1/3rd chosen every year.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by DC85, posted 10-13-2017 4:12 PM DC85 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Rrhain, posted 10-16-2017 3:36 AM RAZD has responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6229
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 71 of 113 (821952)
10-16-2017 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by RAZD
10-15-2017 2:41 PM


Re: Texas ...
RAZD writes:

quote:
So there is hope. And another place to try Faux Republican Progressive candidates

No, for you forget about how legislatures work, or specifically the national House of Representatives and Senate.

In the House, there is a vote for the Speaker. This always falls along party lines. Even if you vote for the "good" Republican, that Republican is going to vote for the horrendous candidate that is put forward by the Republicans to be the Speaker rather than allow the Democrat to be the Speaker. Thus, we will continue to have Ryan as Speaker of the House and thus, it doesn't matter how "good" you think your Republican is: The Republican agenda will be the only thing that is allowed to the floor. You really think your "good" Republican is going to vote against the Republican for Speakership? Not if they expect to remain a Republican.

Have you forgotten the "Hastert Rule"? It's a bit misnamed because Gingrich followed it, too, but it's how the Republican Party has been running things in the House since the 90s: Only if a majority of Republicans would vote for a bill is it allowed to a vote. Even if a majority of the House would vote for the bill, it will never see the light of day unless a majority of the Republicans will vote for it. So congratulations on your "good" Republican...it won't do any good because the only votes that are going to come are going to be the ones your "good" Republican is going to go "bad" on.

In the Senate, it's more direct: Whichever party has the majority is the one that has the control and by convention, it is the one that has the longest record. So your "good" Republican won't stop McConnell from being in charge of the Senate. And again, the party in control sets the agenda and the bills you wish your "good" Republican would vote for will never see the light of day.

That's why there is no such thing as a "good" Republican. The system is designed to perpetuate the power of the party that managed to get the most seats. The only way you could get anything done out of this is to vote the entire Republican party out of office and replace them with "good" Republicans.

So why not just vote for the actual candidate who champions those policies you are seeking to have enacted rather than a fake one who can't do what you want them to do? Why vote for a fake Republican when you can vote for a real liberal? One who isn't ashamed to call themselves such? One who doesn't have to keep up the facade to maintain their ability to get votes from other Republicans by voting against your interests?

Your strategy is to put up a candidate whom you know is going to sell you out immediately and will continue to sell you out in order to maintain their ability to get elected all because you hope they might vote a certain way on a certain bill? A bill that will likely never make it to the floor due to the leadership that this fake candidate installed?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by RAZD, posted 10-15-2017 2:41 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2017 8:02 AM Rrhain has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 72 of 113 (821953)
10-16-2017 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Rrhain
10-16-2017 3:36 AM


Re: Texas ...
Your strategy is to put up a candidate whom you know is going to sell you out immediately and will continue to sell you out in order to maintain their ability to get elected all because you hope they might vote a certain way on a certain bill? A bill that will likely never make it to the floor due to the leadership that this fake candidate installed?

Sorry, no, that is not the strategy. The strategy is to elect a progressive to the house by winning the republican primary. The progressive would side with the democrats not the republicans.

How else do you expect to win back a majority in the house?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Rrhain, posted 10-16-2017 3:36 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by NoNukes, posted 10-16-2017 1:25 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 77 by Rrhain, posted 10-17-2017 3:06 AM RAZD has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10127
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 73 of 113 (821964)
10-16-2017 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by RAZD
10-16-2017 8:02 AM


Re: Texas ...
The strategy is to elect a progressive to Congress

No that isn't what you are trying to do. Instead you are selling off a good chunk of progressive positions in the hope of electing someone less Republicany. And you believe you can find enough voters in a gerrymandered district to win without a runoff.

The democrats running for office in your district must truly suck. For most of us, your plan isn't an answer.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up … they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking — they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2017 8:02 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2017 2:30 PM NoNukes has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 74 of 113 (821968)
10-16-2017 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by NoNukes
10-16-2017 1:25 PM


Re: Texas ...
No that isn't what you are trying to do. Instead you are selling off a good chunk of progressive positions in the hope of electing someone less Republicany.

Curious how people are telling me what I mean, especially when it isn't true.

The idea is to elect a progressive. Period. The idea is that the election essentially takes place in the primary because of gerrymandering -- so bring your candidate to the republican primary and run against one or more (the more the merrier) republicans.

Have everyone in the district vote in the republican primary. Yes there are more republican voters than liberal/progressive voters because of gerrymandering, but IF you can take some votes from the republican OR the republican ticket is split THEN a progressive/liberal could win the primary ... and then you have one or two democrat/progressive/liberal candidates in the general election.

Winning the republican primary doesn't make you a republican.

It is a simple plot to subvert the gerrymandered districting by taking the election to the primary.

Sadly I am astounded that people I regard as above average intelligence can't see beyond party labels ...

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by NoNukes, posted 10-16-2017 1:25 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by xongsmith, posted 10-16-2017 2:55 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 76 by NoNukes, posted 10-17-2017 1:48 AM RAZD has responded

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 1825
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


(2)
Message 75 of 113 (821969)
10-16-2017 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by RAZD
10-16-2017 2:30 PM


Re: Texas ...
RAZD, they won't ever get elected in the R primaries. The talk radios will kill them before arrival. You're counting on no brains from the R side.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2017 2:30 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by RAZD, posted 10-17-2017 9:42 AM xongsmith has not yet responded

    
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