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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
What it says is: There is a proverb that advises not answering fools.1. Don't let fools get away with broadcasting foolishness. 2. Don't be foolish in refuting foolishness.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Most of us do both in the same day. You can donate to charity and buy yourself a new toy with the same chequebook. What...you dont think we consciously choose to be either mostly selfless...considering the needs of others before ourselves OR selfish...looking out for #1? There are not two separate groups of people, which is why God choosing one group makes no sense.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Even Noah had to build his own ark.
You believe that there is no rescuer.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
And neither do you. You can choose to drown. Noah didnt have to do anything! But if Noah didn't want to drown he !@#$ing well DID have to build his own ark - and so do you.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
How can you know whether the Bible is true or not if you don't understand it? You can't look at anything honestly without doubting that it's true.
I understand the term "questioning" to be used in the sense of doubting that the Bible is telling the truth. Not understanding it or having problems with some of its concepts are perfectly normal attitudes everybody goes through.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Why would you start from that premise?
Starting from the premise that the Bible is God's word.... Faith writes:
But you are starting from the attitude that your own judgement is true. You've judged a priori that the Bible is God's word - and you've gone in circles from there.
... a very different perspective than the attitude here that our own judgments are true and the Bible is at fault.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
The idea of "fallen minds" is the most grotesque lie in the pack of lies that is the Fall doctrine. It's a direct contradiction of what God said. Adam and Eve used their minds for the first time when they disobeyed God. Im still coming to grips with the whole idea of Fallen Minds and Regenerated Minds. The only way to have a "fallen mind" is to park it at the door.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I suppose it could be reverse-engineered that way - but what it actually says is that God magically poofed the material objects into existence with His words. Notice that in verse 5 Enoch was magically poofed out of existence instead of dying. That doesn't imply anything about atoms.
I always thought this implied that material objects were made of atoms.. but that was simply my interpretation of that verse.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
It may make sense now but the question is: Did the concept of atoms even occur to the writers of the New Testament? It seems unlikely. Atoms make the most sense to me. They are what makes up things that are seen and yet they themselves are unseen. As I pointed out, verse 3 says that the universe was created by God's words, which are unseen. And as New Cat's Eye pointed out, the broader context is about faith, which is unseen.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
You're contradicting God. He said that Adam and Eve had become more like Him. That's an increase in understanding, not a decrease.
Seems to me the fallen mind must possess a mere shadow of its original powers of understanding and knowledge. Faith writes:
Since your premise is wrong, your conclusion is unreliable - a sure sign of an "unregenerated" mind. Since the regeneration of the new birth gives us the intuitive knowledge of the basic truths of the Christian revelation, there must originally have been an ability to intuitively grasp all kinds of truths we no longer possess. It's funny how self-styled Christians claim to have a superior understanding when they can't even read their own Book.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Sure I am. The premise is a direct contradiction of your own Book, which you claim is inerrant. If the Book is right, there was no Fall; there was no degeneration to regenerate. The Fall was made up by humans.
You are not in a position to say the premise is wrong. Faith writes:
Since the premise is wrong, it doesn't even matter if the logic is correct. You might as well say, "Since all dogs are black, France doesn't exist." Garbage in, garbage out.
However, again, the logic is correct for the premise as given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That doesn't work. Lots of people honestly believe things that are not true. Of late, I am leaning towards the belief that honesty is truth. I would say rather that truth is verifiable. If you can't show "the truth" to somebody else and have them agree that it's true, you can't claim that it is true, no matter how honestly you wish it was true. (And you can't pick and choose who agrees with you either. It has to be a transparent process.)
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That has nothing to do with truth. Sure, sometimes you have to choose a road - and sometimes you'll choose the wrong road. I disagree. Not all truth is verifiable...as least initially. Sometimes you gotta choose a road without knowing the final destination. We're talking about faith here - i.e. people refusing to accept the road signs because of their faith.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
You're just muddying the water. Lazarus did resurrect but he didn't ascend. Enoch ascended without resurrecting because he didn't die.
The only distinction that I would make is that the term risen could I think also be applied to Lazarus which was not the same thing as resurrection.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
I was just pointing out what the words actually mean. Your made-up special meaning for Jesus' resurrection is not valid.
Jesus' was resurrected with a renewed body that is not subject to a later death.
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