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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 301 of 1540 (821838)
10-13-2017 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Phat
10-13-2017 12:12 PM


Re: This is not the time to question the premise
Phat writes:
I always thought this implied that material objects were made of atoms.. but that was simply my interpretation of that verse.
I suppose it could be reverse-engineered that way - but what it actually says is that God magically poofed the material objects into existence with His words. Notice that in verse 5 Enoch was magically poofed out of existence instead of dying. That doesn't imply anything about atoms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Phat, posted 10-13-2017 12:12 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by Phat, posted 10-13-2017 2:33 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 302 of 1540 (821839)
10-13-2017 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by ringo
10-13-2017 12:45 PM


The Poof Is In The Pudding
Atoms make the most sense to me. They are what makes up things that are seen and yet they themselves are unseen.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by ringo, posted 10-13-2017 12:45 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-13-2017 2:58 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 322 by ringo, posted 10-14-2017 11:45 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 303 of 1540 (821840)
10-13-2017 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by ringo
10-13-2017 11:46 AM


Re: I've Fallen And I Cant Get Up
Seems to me the fallen mind must possess a mere shadow of its original powers of understanding and knowledge. Since the regeneration of the new birth gives us the intuitive knowledge of the basic truths of the Christian revelation, there must originally have been an ability to intuitively grasp all kinds of truths we no longer possess.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by ringo, posted 10-13-2017 11:46 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by ringo, posted 10-14-2017 11:52 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 304 of 1540 (821841)
10-13-2017 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by Percy
10-13-2017 8:48 AM


Re: This is not the time to question the premise
Conclusion follows from premise and that is certainly a very simple logical point. You don't need to believe the premise for the logic to be true.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by Percy, posted 10-13-2017 8:48 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by Percy, posted 10-14-2017 8:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 305 of 1540 (821842)
10-13-2017 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by PaulK
10-13-2017 1:50 AM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Oh look, no answer. Looks like the Bible has defeated Faith and her God yet again.
And just as a reminder, the key question is:
Then please explain to me how Jesus can be any use as a sign that the Assyrians are going to conquer Aram and Israel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by PaulK, posted 10-13-2017 1:50 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 4:36 PM PaulK has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 306 of 1540 (821843)
10-13-2017 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by Phat
10-13-2017 2:33 PM


Re: The Poof Is In The Pudding
Atoms make the most sense to me. They are what makes up things that are seen and yet they themselves are unseen.
I don't think it's talking about physical things. If you read the whole chapter, as well as the end of Chapter 10 and the beginning of Chapter 12, it reads as if it is talking about the unseen future.
quote:
Hebrews 10
23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one anotherand all the more as you see the Day approaching.
32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you endured in a great conflict full of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated. 34 You suffered along with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions. 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.
36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.
39 But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.
quote:
Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
4 By faith Abel brought God...
5 By faith Enoch was taken...
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family...
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going....
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
quote:
Hebrews 12
12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
The lesson is to keep your faith and press on even when you're not sure what the outcome is going to be. God is in charge of what is going to happen an He'll make it right if you stand by your faith and do the right thing.
That's my take on it.
It doesn't have anything to do with atoms, or in Faith's case granting believers special Bible-reading powers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by Phat, posted 10-13-2017 2:33 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 307 of 1540 (821851)
10-13-2017 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by PaulK
10-13-2017 2:50 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
You're right, it does have to work as a sign to Ahaz, and I'm sure it does but I don't care to research it right now. Even so, it is definitely a prophecy of the virgin birth of the Messiah, because the New Testament says so, and the traditional Church says so, for a couple of millennia already, and they have a lot more authority than any unbeliever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by PaulK, posted 10-13-2017 2:50 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by PaulK, posted 10-13-2017 4:46 PM Faith has replied
 Message 329 by kbertsche, posted 10-15-2017 5:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 308 of 1540 (821852)
10-13-2017 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by Faith
10-13-2017 4:36 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
quote:
You're right, it does have to work as a sign to Ahaz, and I'm sure it does but I don't care to research it right now
And you have put a lot of effort into trying to deny it. So much for your "regenerate mind"
quote:
Even so, it is definitely a prophecy of the virgin birth of the Messiah, because the New Testament says so, and the traditional Church says so, for a couple of millennia already, and they have a lot more authority than any unbeliever.
The truth isn't decided by authority. Whoever wrote the Gospel According to Matthew took a small part of Isaiah out of context. Read in context it doesn't appear to refer to a virgin birth at all (nobody claims one happened in the reign of Ahaz), or the Messiah (nobody claims that the child born then was the Messiah) - and if there's some hidden meaning it is very well hidden. And simply appealing to dubious authorities (and they certainly are dubious!) doesn't help that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 4:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 5:25 PM PaulK has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 309 of 1540 (821856)
10-13-2017 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 308 by PaulK
10-13-2017 4:46 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Matthew took nothing out of context. The New Testament is all God's word. You don't get a vote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by PaulK, posted 10-13-2017 4:46 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by PaulK, posted 10-13-2017 5:35 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 311 by jar, posted 10-13-2017 5:37 PM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 310 of 1540 (821858)
10-13-2017 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Faith
10-13-2017 5:25 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
quote:
Matthew took nothing out of context
Obviously wrong. You should try actually studying the Bible sometime, if you are capable of it. (And let's not forget that you were aggressively wrong about Isaiah 7 for some time, before you call that a personal attack)
quote:
The New Testament is all God's word
According to your idols. The actual books of the New Testament make no claim to be "all God's word". Not one of them.
quote:
You don't get a vote.
The truth isn't decided by voting either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 5:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 311 of 1540 (821859)
10-13-2017 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 309 by Faith
10-13-2017 5:25 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Faith writes:
Matthew took nothing out of context. The New Testament is all God's word. You don't get a vote.
Too funny.
We get to read and we have the great gift from the Garden of Eden, to know right from wrong and so know that the author of Matthew took pieces parts out of context and tried to pretend it was whole cloth. It seems lots of the rubes even bought it.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 5:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 7:15 PM jar has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 312 of 1540 (821863)
10-13-2017 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Phat
10-13-2017 12:12 PM


Re: This is not the time to question the premise
Phat writes:
I always thought this implied that material objects were made of atoms.. but that was simply my interpretation of that verse.
That makes a lot of sense, but my guess is that that passage has had an interpretation for centuries, before we knew about atoms. I just took a look over at BibleHub's interpretation of Hebrews 11:3, they have the commentary from several sources, and it looks like the most common interpretation is along the lines of the universe of things not having a worldly origin.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Phat, posted 10-13-2017 12:12 PM Phat has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 313 of 1540 (821866)
10-13-2017 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 311 by jar
10-13-2017 5:37 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
I don't think I've ever seen your "reading" of the Bible on any subject even once approach reasonableness. Matthew is a lot smarter and more honest than you by a long loooooooong shot. The Bible is God's word and it will be your judge in the end.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by jar, posted 10-13-2017 5:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by jar, posted 10-13-2017 7:49 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 314 of 1540 (821867)
10-13-2017 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 313 by Faith
10-13-2017 7:15 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Too funny Faith.
The difference is I am honest about what the Bible actually says while Biblical Christians just make shit up and deny the Bible says what it says.
If the Bible is God's word then God can't get the story straight, is often factually wrong and takes passages out of context.
The reality that the Bible actually contains what it contains and says what it says is not a problem for me, because I know it is human words, not God's words. That's why there really isn't "The Bible" but rather only the Bible that is chosen by particular chapters of Club Christian.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 313 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 7:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Faith, posted 10-13-2017 8:12 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 315 of 1540 (821868)
10-13-2017 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by jar
10-13-2017 7:49 PM


Re: Conversations with Faith on faith.
Wait and see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by jar, posted 10-13-2017 7:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by jar, posted 10-13-2017 8:17 PM Faith has replied

  
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