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Author Topic:   Omniscience, Omnipotence, the Fall & Logical Contradictions.
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 301 of 354 (690136)
02-09-2013 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by ringo
02-09-2013 12:59 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
OK I will agree then that God is responsible. Does this then imply that humans are not also responsible for choosing or rejecting Jesus Christ?
Should God have not allowed evil to exist?
Lets try and defend Lucifer for a moment...before his fall from heaven.
Should Lucifer have told God that regardless of what he (Lucifer) chose to do or become, God was responsible for creating him and giving him free choice to question authority?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by ringo, posted 02-09-2013 12:59 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by ringo, posted 02-09-2013 1:17 PM Phat has replied
 Message 304 by PaulK, posted 02-09-2013 1:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 306 by Theodoric, posted 02-09-2013 9:26 PM Phat has replied
 Message 311 by kofh2u, posted 02-10-2013 1:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 312 by SouthDakotaSkeptic, posted 02-11-2013 1:27 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 303 of 354 (690139)
02-09-2013 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by ringo
02-09-2013 1:17 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Ringo writes:
Why is evil "necessary"?
This gets back to my theory of potential evil versus actual evil. First lets ask what evil is. I believe that evil is simple disobedience of truth. Lucifer chose simple disobedience. He may have argued that it was merely the right of free choice. He may have argued that there is no door # 2. That there is no door # 1, even. If God was an absolute, however, Lucifer was arguing against that absolute. He was essentially arguing that truth is relative. That He as an angel should have the same rights as the absolute Creator.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by ringo, posted 02-09-2013 1:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by ringo, posted 02-11-2013 11:52 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 307 of 354 (690177)
02-09-2013 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by Theodoric
02-09-2013 9:26 PM


Freewill and Foreknowledge again
Phat writes:
Does this then imply that humans are not also responsible for choosing or rejecting Jesus Christ?
Theodoric writes:
But according to you your god knew along who would "reject" this jesus guy so therefore since he is all powerful he is the one that made people reject.
Say that you are the director of a play. It is a long play and the characters are told that they can ad lib their lines, actions, and emotions throughout the play. You however foreknow the way that the play will be acted. Does this then make you in direct control of what is ad libbed, simply because you see the eventual script?
Just because God foreknows what you may or may not decide, conclude, or rationalize does not mean that He made you think it, believe it, or say it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Theodoric, posted 02-09-2013 9:26 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 308 of 354 (690179)
02-09-2013 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by Theodoric
02-09-2013 9:21 PM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
I think I see what you mean. If I as a human agent can truly freely decide something, God is not all powerful since He cant make me decide otherwise. Is this what you are suggesting?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Theodoric, posted 02-09-2013 9:21 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Theodoric, posted 02-10-2013 11:25 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 313 of 354 (690237)
02-11-2013 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Theodoric
02-10-2013 11:25 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
so if everything is preordained, why not choose Jesus?
the other alternative is the false spirit that says it itself is god.
and even if you don't believe that, why not choose Jesus anyway?
Edited by Phat, :

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Theodoric, posted 02-10-2013 11:25 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 314 of 354 (690239)
02-11-2013 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by SouthDakotaSkeptic
02-11-2013 1:27 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Assuming the Christian god exists and possesses the attributes usually attributed to him (omnipotence, omniscience, and omnibenevolence), the responsibility would rest with him to save humans, not on humans (who lack omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence) to "choose or reject" Jesus.
I disagree. Lucifer had the original free will and chose his own alternate reality...(by Gods will). God already knew the way out of this potential dualism and this is why Jesus was in the beginning with the Father. The responsibility to save humans was thus already present, even before Lucifer created a need.
The existence of evil makes the possibility of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god existing vanishingly small, if not outright impossible.
This sounds like a lie from the evil one himself. He claims that God doesn't in fact exist and that we are all potentially divine.
Edited by Phat, : added dogma

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by SouthDakotaSkeptic, posted 02-11-2013 1:27 AM SouthDakotaSkeptic has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by SouthDakotaSkeptic, posted 02-11-2013 2:18 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 316 of 354 (690242)
02-11-2013 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by SouthDakotaSkeptic
02-11-2013 2:18 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
you do raise a good point, but its not enough to cause me to doubt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qerX_jD_4n8
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by SouthDakotaSkeptic, posted 02-11-2013 2:18 AM SouthDakotaSkeptic has replied

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 Message 320 by SouthDakotaSkeptic, posted 02-11-2013 11:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 319 of 354 (690278)
02-11-2013 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by ringo
02-11-2013 11:52 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
Phat writes:
I believe that evil is simple disobedience of truth.... If God was an absolute, however, Lucifer was arguing against that absolute. He was essentially arguing that truth is relative.
Ringo writes:
If there is absolute truth, how can there be free will? A choice between TRUE and FALSE is not a real choice. Free will requires a choice like, If I do this, then that happens OR if I do something else, then something different happens. That's relative truth.
IF my belief is correct, there is not true free will in the sense of having a desired absolute outcome for ones life. "every knee shall bow" one way or another. If we accept Jesus as Gods character...and accept the mans Spirit into a communion with our own....we may then become compelled to start doing more altruistic behaviors. This is why I believe that even though you are not religious and even say that you lean towards agnosticism/atheism, you have the Spirit within you. most all of your answers to many religious arguments and discussions show that you have accepted Jesus, or at least that were you to meet Him you would acknowledge Him as Lord.
You may argue, just for arguments sake, that God foreknew all of this and in that respect you never had a choice not to believe. (or act.) what say ye?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by ringo, posted 02-11-2013 11:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by ringo, posted 02-13-2013 11:27 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 323 of 354 (822271)
10-22-2017 12:10 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by ringo
02-09-2013 1:17 PM


Bringing Henry Ford Into This
A popular quote by automaker Henry Ford concerning the Model T in 1909 was this:
quote:
Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black.
Thus my question. Is Red Necessary? Is Green Necessary? Is White Necessary?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by ringo, posted 02-09-2013 1:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by ringo, posted 10-22-2017 3:21 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 324 of 354 (822272)
10-22-2017 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by ringo
02-13-2013 11:27 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
There's a big difference between accepting the principles taught by somebody and acknowledging that somebody as "Lord".
Likely the first being in the universe to refuse to call Jesus Lord was satan. Why follow that model?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by ringo, posted 02-13-2013 11:27 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 12:47 AM Phat has replied
 Message 334 by ringo, posted 10-22-2017 2:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 326 of 354 (822275)
10-22-2017 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 325 by jar
10-22-2017 12:47 AM


Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
jar writes:
Again Phat, that is not what the Bible says.
I realize that. The argument we all were having was more of a hypothetical dogmatic interpretation and was not intended to be a Bible Study. Logically it would seem that satan was the first character mentioned that did not acknowledge Jesus as Lord.
I realize that your basic argument was that the knowledge of good and evil was a gift that made humans responsible. In our arguments back then, Paul K was claiming that God had to be responsible for allowing evil to exist. I was attempting to introduce my own belief/take that there was potential evil and actual evil. The question was whether Satan ever had a choice to not become evil. Gods foreknowledge would have been irrelevant at this point. Whether God directly caused evil or only created an attractive nuisance is a side issue.
Perhaps our question can be summarized thus: Who Was Responsible?
  • Was it God?(for creating the possibility?)
  • Was it Satan? (For choosing the possibility?)
  • Was it Adam & Eve? (For becoming aware of responsibility and choice?)

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 325 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 12:47 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 327 by PaulK, posted 10-22-2017 4:15 AM Phat has replied
     Message 328 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 7:00 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 329 of 354 (822291)
    10-22-2017 9:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 327 by PaulK
    10-22-2017 4:15 AM


    Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
    PaulK writes:
    If God knew before creating Satan, that Satan (if he was created as he was) would inevitably rebel then God has the primary responsibility. God chose the rebellion and all its effects and nobody else could possibly stop it. The evil was not just potential - it was guaranteed, and knowingly guaranteed by God's choices.
    OK, I'll follow your argument for a moment. God has the primary responsibility. The Buck Stops There. So what does that mean for an individual? Can the individual be blamed for denying God? Being angry at God? Ignoring belief altogether? Or is the individual still responsible for their own behavior regardless where the behavior originated from?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 327 by PaulK, posted 10-22-2017 4:15 AM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 330 by PaulK, posted 10-22-2017 9:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 333 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 10:33 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 331 of 354 (822294)
    10-22-2017 9:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 322 by ringo
    02-13-2013 11:27 AM


    Re: The "omnipotence and omniscience are mutually exclusive" argument is weak!
    ringo writes:
    I think it's pretty clear that the "choice" to be altruistic is biological and social, not religious. Almost every religion advocates the same altruism.
    OK, getting back to one of our side debates about beliefs versus actions. Logic says that we choose our beliefs and also our actions. If a guy does the right (altruistic, assumedly) actions yet professes no belief, will the guy be judged on his choice of belief? If so, and if the individual really has no free will in the matter, who is responsible for the judgment?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 322 by ringo, posted 02-13-2013 11:27 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 332 by Tangle, posted 10-22-2017 10:22 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 335 by ringo, posted 10-22-2017 2:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 337 of 354 (822311)
    10-22-2017 3:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 336 by ringo
    10-22-2017 3:21 PM


    Re: Bringing Henry Ford Into This
    Having the option of a car gives a man free will to not have to walk, as does a bicycle, as does a skateboard. Necessity is the mother of all inventions. Evil must have been a necessary invention. God only knows why. Some say that evil does not always appear to be evil. All that glitters isn't gold, however. I'm not sure why God invented/allowed evil. My argument, however, is that the reason was not to be petty, vindictive, or even clueless. Perhaps our question should be why was evil necessary? Some things that are bad for us are not cursed. Do we usually curse the one who invented alcohol, for example?
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 336 by ringo, posted 10-22-2017 3:21 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 338 by ringo, posted 10-22-2017 3:53 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 339 of 354 (822329)
    10-23-2017 8:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 338 by ringo
    10-22-2017 3:53 PM


    The Mother Of All Bums
    ringo writes:
    Evil "must have been" a necessary invention because you need it to make your theology work.
    All I know is that evil is an observable daily fact.
    I'm not one to say that its necessary, yet see that it is clearly ubiquitous.
    I believe in actions as strongly as you believe in some guy rising from the dead. The difference is that your belief has no meaning.
    GDR seems to think that actions need the proper motivation.
    GDR,in another thread writes:
    I do agree with you that it isn't what we give intellectual assent to that makes us right with God. You seem to think that ultimately it is about the lives we live that matters. I agree with that to a point but I don't think that it is so much about what we actually do that matters but our motivation for what we do.
    A simple example is that when we donate our time or financial resources to others less fortunate, but if it is really about the desire to be well thought of by our peers, it isn't the same as doing it just because we want to do the right thing regardless of any recognition. It is about choosing between loving selfishly and loving unselfishly. It is about the heart.
    I can see his point. If I simply give spare change to the creative homeless guy spinning his sign on the corner, and if i am doing it to alleviate my conscience, perhaps I am not doing enough.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 338 by ringo, posted 10-22-2017 3:53 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 340 by jar, posted 10-23-2017 9:23 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 341 by ringo, posted 10-23-2017 11:39 AM Phat has replied

      
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