Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,816 Year: 3,073/9,624 Month: 918/1,588 Week: 101/223 Day: 12/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 391 of 1540 (822259)
10-21-2017 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by GDR
10-21-2017 7:16 PM


Re: Evolving theology
Let's explore this idea of cultural Christianity, shall we?
Of course, I googled several definitions.
  • At Got Questions.Org What Is Cultural Christianity?
    They basically say that "Cultural Christianity is a religion that superficially identifies itself as Christianity but does not truly adhere to the faith. A cultural Christian is a nominal believerhe wears the label Christian, but the label has more to do with his family background and upbringing than any personal conviction that Jesus is Lord. ". We cant accuse jar of being a nominal believer if he routinely goes and does for the least of these. (Grocery Carts, eye level with children, helping the neighbor, and attempting to rescue the poor Biblical Christians from willful ignorance certainly counts as something! I do not know what jar does on a daily basis, but I can see him helping a lot of people in small yet meaningful ways. I do think that both jar and Ringo are too casual in minimizing the resurrection of Jesus and do not claim Jesus to be Lord. The counter-argument is that God is unconcerned with such superficial toadying and this is why jar claims that atheists, Wiccans, other beliefs, and common street folk will make it into heaven ahead of Biblical Christians..(the proverbial goats. )
    I was always taught the importance of belief in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus as the necessary step towards being a true Christian and not simply one in name only. To his credit, jar seems to bear fruit in his life, much of which we cannot see. (John 15:1-8) I cant say that I am any more of a Christian than jar is, though he often annoys me by equating other beliefs as just as important as the Christian ones (and Creedal ones) which he has learned.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 389 by GDR, posted 10-21-2017 7:16 PM GDR has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 392 by jar, posted 10-21-2017 9:46 PM Phat has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    (1)
    Message 392 of 1540 (822263)
    10-21-2017 9:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 391 by Phat
    10-21-2017 9:17 PM


    Re: Evolving theology
    Phat writes:
    I do think that both jar and Ringo are too casual in minimizing the resurrection of Jesus and do not claim Jesus to be Lord.
    What does that even mean. Have you ever read Matthew 7:21?
    Phat writes:
    I was always taught the importance of belief in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus as the necessary step towards being a true Christian and not simply one in name only.
    Read what I have posted but read for comprehension.
    There is a difference between belief and knowledge or fact. Jesus said it is not believing in Jesus but what we do that is relevant.
    Beliefs can determine membership. The Creeds are an example. The Nicene Creed starts with "We believe..." or "I believe ...".
    They are a means to determine membership in a given Chapter of Club Christian. They are a simplified statement of beliefs.
    But beliefs only have value if they lead to actions. Read Luke 6 and pay particular attention from verse 43 to the end of the chapter.
    The Creeds do not tell us what we should do.
    Remember, these are supposed to be what Jesus said; not what Paul said or John said or Peter said but what Jesus said.
    Jesus' lessons and teachings go beyond mere beliefs and are about how to be a Christian and simply claiming Jesus as Lord means next to nothing.
    But the thing that seems to cause you and some others the greatest angst may be my pointing out that beliefs do not have to be based on reality to be of value.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 391 by Phat, posted 10-21-2017 9:17 PM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 395 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 9:24 AM jar has replied

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 393 of 1540 (822277)
    10-22-2017 2:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 390 by jar
    10-21-2017 7:47 PM


    Re: Evolving theology
    jar writes:
    Go back and read Message 111 and Message 155 and Message 266 and Message 349 and Message 358 and Message 369 and if you want I can likely point you to other posts.
    I read them all and none them point out an example of you holding onto any particular belief that can't be held by a secular humanist. You say you believe in the Nicene Creed.
    Here's part of it.
    quote:
    Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.
    Here is a quote from one of your earlier posts.
    jar writes:
    Also the fact of Jesus living, Jesus death, Jesus resurrection and Jesus ascension are irrelevant to the foundational beliefs of Christianity. Even if none of it ever really happened people believed that Jesus did live, did teach, did die, did arise from the dead and did ascend to heaven and that at some future date will judge all.
    If it didn't really happen Jesus is a delusional failed messiah, and there is no reason to believe anything He says. That wouldn't mean that the message of love, peace and forgiveness that is found in the Gospels is irrelevant. It simply means that we really need other sources to come to the conclusion that it represents a positive path in life. The bulk of secular humanists would agree.
    Here is Phat's definition of a cultural Christian.
    quote:
    They basically say that "Cultural Christianity is a religion that superficially identifies itself as Christianity but does not truly adhere to the faith. A cultural Christian is a nominal believerhe wears the label Christian, but the label has more to do with his family background and upbringing than any personal conviction that Jesus is Lord.
    That fits you to a tee. I was raised as a Christian. I was baptized and confirmed and then decided it wasn't all that relevant and got on with life for about 20 years. I would say that following the life style and choices that Jesus espoused was a good thing and I more or less did that, but I considered myself more of an agnostic than anything else.
    I think another mistake you are making is that, correct me if I'm wrong, that you are assuming that I believe that by getting these beliefs right that I will be granted salvation. We are actually on the same page except that I think that I'm even less inclined than you are to claim who is on the right path when it comes to our lives. I do agree with you that it isn't what we give intellectual assent to that makes us right with God. You seem to think that ultimately it is about the lives we live that matters. I agree with that to a point but I don't think that it is so much about what we actually do that matters but our motivation for what we do.
    A simple example is that when we donate our time or financial resources to others less fortunate, but if it is really about the desire to be well thought of by our peers, it isn't the same as doing it just because we want to do the right thing regardless of any recognition. It is about choosing between loving selfishly and loving unselfishly. It is about the heart.
    We probably agree about what is the right path for our lives and we can agree that that path can be found in other faiths, including secular humanism but that is not the same discussion as to what it is about the Christian religion itself that distinguishes it from other faiths.

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
    Micah 6:8

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 390 by jar, posted 10-21-2017 7:47 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 394 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 7:04 AM GDR has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 394 of 1540 (822282)
    10-22-2017 7:04 AM
    Reply to: Message 393 by GDR
    10-22-2017 2:32 AM


    Re: Evolving theology
    What part of I believe the Nicene Creed and I do not take pieces parts of the Nicene creed out of context do you not understand.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 393 by GDR, posted 10-22-2017 2:32 AM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 402 by GDR, posted 10-30-2017 2:20 PM jar has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 395 of 1540 (822289)
    10-22-2017 9:24 AM
    Reply to: Message 392 by jar
    10-21-2017 9:46 PM


    Re: Evolving theology
    jar writes:
    Jesus' lessons and teachings go beyond mere beliefs and are about how to be a Christian and simply claiming Jesus as Lord means next to nothing.
    But the thing that seems to cause you and some others the greatest angst may be my pointing out that beliefs do not have to be based on reality to be of value.
    You are likely correct. I feel that you often disrespect the teaching...the belief...perhaps the origin and validity of Christianity, but I cannot claim that you do not advocate doing what the lessons and teacher (Jesus) say to do.
    I used to always label you as the Apostle to the Atheists, and I still sometimes think that you cater to their collective attempt to separate the belief from the reality. I would think that a Christian would or at least should attempt to fight for the validity and history of the belief itself yet you suggest that the lesson that should be passed on is the teaching (to do for others) and that the truthfulness of the legend does not matter as much as the lessons taught within the story. (add by edit) GDR seems to go off on this same tangent.
    GDR writes:
    You seem to think that ultimately it is about the lives we live that matters. I agree with that to a point but I don't think that it is so much about what we actually do that matters but our motivation for what we do.
    And the way I was taught, the motivation was to "be a good Christian" and believe...then do. In contrast, you seem to suggest that doing is everything and for this reason, the unbelievers who do correctly will arrive in heaven (should one exist) before the Biblical Christians hung up on doctrine and belief yet short on useful action.
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 392 by jar, posted 10-21-2017 9:46 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 396 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 10:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
     Message 397 by ringo, posted 10-22-2017 2:39 PM Phat has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    (1)
    Message 396 of 1540 (822297)
    10-22-2017 10:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 395 by Phat
    10-22-2017 9:24 AM


    Re: Evolving theology
    Phat writes:
    And the way I was taught, the motivation was to "be a good Christian" and believe...then do. In contrast, you seem to suggest that doing is everything and for this reason, the unbelievers who do correctly will arrive in heaven (should one exist) before the Biblical Christians hung up on doctrine and belief yet short on useful action.
    And that is why I believe what you were taught is nothing but a perversion of what Jesus taught and what the Bible, including John & Paul and Jesus, actually say.
    Phat writes:
    I feel that you often disrespect the teaching...the belief...perhaps the origin and validity of Christianity, ...
    If you change disrespect to question I would say that you are correct but that I think that is what everyone of any religion needs to do. I question if what is commonly taught in Christianity today would be anything Jesus would even recognize much less sanction or want to be associated with.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 395 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 9:24 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 397 of 1540 (822304)
    10-22-2017 2:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 395 by Phat
    10-22-2017 9:24 AM


    Re: Evolving theology
    Phat writes:
    ... believe...then do.
    You're looking at it backwards. The belief is not the cause of the deeds. The deeds are a symptom of the belief.
    quote:
    Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
    You can be a Muslim or a Buddhist or an atheist and do His will. You can be a Christian and not do His will. The only belief that matters is belief in doing the deeds.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 395 by Phat, posted 10-22-2017 9:24 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 398 by Phat, posted 10-23-2017 8:57 AM ringo has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 398 of 1540 (822330)
    10-23-2017 8:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 397 by ringo
    10-22-2017 2:39 PM


    Re: Evolving theology
    The only belief that matters is belief in doing the deeds.
    But why is it important to you to do these deeds?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 397 by ringo, posted 10-22-2017 2:39 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 400 by ringo, posted 10-23-2017 11:51 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Aussie
    Member
    Posts: 275
    From: FL USA
    Joined: 10-02-2006


    Message 399 of 1540 (822337)
    10-23-2017 10:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 387 by GDR
    10-21-2017 1:10 PM


    Re: Evolving theology
    Lazarus experienced a resuscitation. He later died the same death that all of us experience. There is no account of Lazarus' revival being called a resurrection.
    There is no account of Lazarus' revival being called a resuscitation either, sooooo...your point seems to have a markedly absurd quality about it.
    Many Jews at the time believed in a resurrection at some point in the future when Yahweh would raise up the faithful to be with Him. Thus the metaphorical, (at least I believe it was metaphorical), telling of the the bodies of the saints rising from the dead and leaving their tombs. Matthew understood that this was not a simple case of bringing someone back to life, but a case of bringing someone back to a new form of life, or the new Adam of a renewed world. This is also consistent with the entire NT.
    Whoah! Wait a minute... The saints coming out of their graves at Jesus' death is only metaphorical? Matt 27:51 "At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people."
    That is just a metaphor? Really? So was the veil being rent in two also a metaphor? Because that appears in the exact same tiny cluster of verses. Please answer. Was Judas hanging himself also metaphorical? It's in the same chapter. What about Jesus' conversation with Pilate? What about His death? Was the securing and guarding of the tomb by the Roman soldiers a metaphor? This is an important point. Why did you pick this one thing out of one chapter and suddenly decide it doesn't mean what it clearly says?

    "...heck is a small price to pay for the truth"

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 387 by GDR, posted 10-21-2017 1:10 PM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 415 by GDR, posted 10-31-2017 11:01 AM Aussie has replied

      
    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    (1)
    Message 400 of 1540 (822344)
    10-23-2017 11:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 398 by Phat
    10-23-2017 8:57 AM


    Re: Evolving theology
    Phat writes:
    But why is it important to you to do these deeds?
    Humans are social animals. Our consciences evolved as a mechanism to foster the survival of the species. Unfortunately, religions often try to outsource conscience to an alien overlord.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 398 by Phat, posted 10-23-2017 8:57 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 401 of 1540 (822628)
    10-30-2017 2:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 385 by ringo
    10-20-2017 11:49 AM


    Re: Evolving theology
    Sorry to be so long in replying. I get tied up with life.
    ringo writes:
    Yes. He rose from the dead. That's what the word means. Just Google "Resurrection of Lazarus".
    It wasn't simply rising form the dead to only continue aging and die again later. The account that the Gospels and Epistles give is of a resurrection into a renewed, not a revived body, that is eternal. It was a body that was there and then it wasn't. In modern terms it was a body that could move between God's dimension and our own.
    Paul writes this in 1Cor. 15:
    quote:
    42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.
    Paul's point is that the resurrected Jesus is the new Adam of a renewed creation. Certainly we can reject this message but that is what the Biblical stories relate.

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
    Micah 6:8

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 385 by ringo, posted 10-20-2017 11:49 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 411 by Percy, posted 10-31-2017 8:14 AM GDR has not replied
     Message 416 by ringo, posted 10-31-2017 11:54 AM GDR has not replied

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 402 of 1540 (822629)
    10-30-2017 2:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 394 by jar
    10-22-2017 7:04 AM


    Re: Evolving theology
    jar writes:
    What part of I believe the Nicene Creed and I do not take pieces parts of the Nicene creed out of context do you not understand.
    The part where you say this.
    jar writes:
    Also the fact of Jesus living, Jesus death, Jesus resurrection and Jesus ascension are irrelevant to the foundational beliefs of Christianity. Even if none of it ever really happened people believed that Jesus did live, did teach, did die, did arise from the dead and did ascend to heaven and that at some future date will judge all.
    The resurrection was the foundational belief of Christianity. The disciples scattered when the crucifixion happened, out of fear that they might suffer the same fate. They obviously concluded that they had backed the wrong horse and that Jesus was just another in a growing list of failed messiahs. The Gospel accounts without the resurrection make Jesus delusional and if that is the case then secular humanism makes much more sense than Christianity.

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
    Micah 6:8

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 394 by jar, posted 10-22-2017 7:04 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 403 by jar, posted 10-30-2017 4:00 PM GDR has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 403 of 1540 (822633)
    10-30-2017 4:00 PM
    Reply to: Message 402 by GDR
    10-30-2017 2:20 PM


    Re: Evolving theology
    Too funny.
    Yes, they believed them but it is irrelevant whether or not they actually happened.
    GDR writes:
    The resurrection was the foundational belief of Christianity. The disciples scattered when the crucifixion happened, out of fear that they might suffer the same fate. They obviously concluded that they had backed the wrong horse and that Jesus was just another in a growing list of failed messiahs. The Gospel accounts without the resurrection make Jesus delusional and if that is the case then secular humanism makes much more sense than Christianity.
    And yet again, learn to read, comprehend and actually think.
    You repeated assertion that "The Gospel accounts without the resurrection make Jesus delusional and if that is the case then secular humanism makes much more sense than Christianity." is also totally irrelevant to whether or not I am a Christian.
    It really is that simple.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 402 by GDR, posted 10-30-2017 2:20 PM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 404 by GDR, posted 10-30-2017 4:34 PM jar has replied
     Message 412 by Percy, posted 10-31-2017 8:23 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

      
    GDR
    Member
    Posts: 6202
    From: Sidney, BC, Canada
    Joined: 05-22-2005
    Member Rating: 1.9


    Message 404 of 1540 (822640)
    10-30-2017 4:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 403 by jar
    10-30-2017 4:00 PM


    Re: Evolving theology
    jar writes:
    Too funny. - And yet again, learn to read, comprehend and actually think.
    As you so often do, you return your method of making your point by mocking whoever it is you are having a discussion with. Not really that Christ like for a Christian. It doesn't make your view point any more convincing.
    Anybody can call themselves a Christian and so I suppose that would make them one, but I have yet to hear anything about your beliefs that would distinguish you from a secular humanist other than the statement that you are a Christian.

    He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
    Micah 6:8

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 403 by jar, posted 10-30-2017 4:00 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 405 by jar, posted 10-30-2017 4:39 PM GDR has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 405 of 1540 (822642)
    10-30-2017 4:39 PM
    Reply to: Message 404 by GDR
    10-30-2017 4:34 PM


    Re: Evolving theology
    GDR writes:
    Anybody can call themselves a Christian and so I suppose that would make them one, but I have yet to hear anything about your beliefs that would distinguish you from a secular humanist other than the statement that you are a Christian.
    I do not mock people but I do try to help those in need.
    What part of "I believe the Nicene Creed but do not take pieces parts of it out of context and am a Confirmed Member of a Recognized Chapter of club Christian." are you have problems understanding?
    Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 404 by GDR, posted 10-30-2017 4:34 PM GDR has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 406 by GDR, posted 10-30-2017 5:15 PM jar has replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024