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Author Topic:   Genesis "kinds" may be Nested Hierarchies.
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(2)
Message 6 of 218 (821094)
10-02-2017 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Dredge
10-02-2017 3:25 AM


I like to think of the world's languages as nested hierarchies.
Pretty much, although loan words can violate the nesting principle.
You say "all life is a nested hierarchy", but apparently there are many creatures that don't fall into a nested hierarchy.
I'm not aware of any. Got a few examples?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 38 by Dredge, posted 10-21-2017 8:42 PM JonF has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 29 of 218 (821541)
10-09-2017 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by dwise1
10-09-2017 1:11 AM


Re: Dredge: yes? Nested Hierarchies = kinds = clades

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 46 of 218 (822265)
10-21-2017 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Dredge
10-21-2017 8:42 PM


I see they are as knowledgeable as you about evolution. All those examples are issues only if you ignore real evolution theory.
Pick one and defend it.
You won't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Dredge, posted 10-21-2017 8:42 PM Dredge has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 48 of 218 (822267)
10-21-2017 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Dredge
10-21-2017 8:51 PM


Yes.

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Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 49 of 218 (822268)
10-21-2017 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Dredge
10-21-2017 9:30 PM


Re: Dredge: yes? Nested Hierarchies = kinds = clades
Yeah, if you define "everyone" as "the abysmally ignorant". Anyone with a clue doesn't "know" that.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 51 of 218 (822290)
10-22-2017 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by PaulK
10-22-2017 3:43 AM


Re: Dredge: yes? Nested Hierarchies = kinds = clades
Yeah, but Discover is a pretty good magazine written for those who are ignorant of the subject.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 55 of 218 (822324)
10-23-2017 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Dredge
10-22-2017 7:32 PM


On second thoughts, the whole "nested hierarchy" thing is very overrated - to put it mildly. In fact, from start to finish, it's an imaginary concept invented by Darwinists.
Sorry,no. A nested hierarchy is a specific type of arrangement of elements of sets and is a concept invented by mathematicians. Very few sets can be arranged in a nested hierarchy. As evinced by the many failed attempts by creationists to arrange vehicles and whatnot into a nested hierarchy.
The fact that life can be arranged in a nested hierarchy is an observation. It's data. It's so unusual in the universe of all sets that it demands explanation.
We have one.
You don't (other than magic).
And as Gould said, "The evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and nodes of their branches; the rest is inference however reasonable, not the evidence of fossils."
A quote-mine from a non-technical essay aimed at people unfamiliar with the subject. The Quote Mine Project, item 3.2.
If you want to discuss the inferences and demonstrate they are not valid, go ahead. But you'll have to do a lot of studying first.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 56 of 218 (822325)
10-23-2017 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Pressie
10-23-2017 12:30 AM


Re: Someone mentioned Gould
He tried, and failed.
quote:
"Do all life forms fall into a nested hierarchy?" at evolutionnews.org
By Casey Luskin, a lawyer famed for his ignorance of biology. For example:
quote:
Sahelanthropus tchadensis is widely touted as a human ancestor that lived about 6-7 million years ago, sometime very soon after the supposed split between the human line and the chimp line. But it’s rarely mentioned that this specimen doesn’t fit into the standard hominin tree at all. Why? Because it has a flat face, a humanlike quality, which shouldn’t exist that far back:
quote:
If we accept these as sufficient evidence to classify S. tchadensis as a hominid at the base, or stem, of the modern human clade, then it plays havoc with the tidy model of human origins. Quite simply, a hominid of this age should only just be beginning to show signs of being a hominid. It certainly should not have the face of a hominid less than one-third of its geological age. Also, if it is accepted as a stem hominid, under the tidy model the principle of parsimony dictates that all creatures with more primitive faces (and that is a very long list) would, perforce, have to be excluded from the ancestry of modern humans.
(Bernard Wood, Hominid revelations from Chad, Nature, 418 (July 11, 2002):133-35.)
Because of this, some are skeptical that S. tchadensis belongs on the human line. If that’s the case then its flat face represents convergent evolution. And if it is on the human line, then you are forced to propose that later species on the human line lost this trait. Either way, S. tchadensis creates major problems for a nice, neat, nested hierarchy of hominins that is consistent with the chronology of the fossil record.
Of course there's no reason to believe that a flat face couldn't have evolved independently in a species that later died out. No problem at all.
ABE: Of course no biologist or knowledgeable person calims that any hominid fossil is a direct ancestor of us.
Edited by JonF, : No reason given.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 71 of 218 (822534)
10-27-2017 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Dredge
10-26-2017 11:38 PM


Don't be silly. It's not an "observation". It's an atheist fable which got its inspiration from a science-fiction novel written by Charles Darwin
Can I have some of what you are smoking?
No doubt I'm late to the party, but Carolus Linnaeus first published the nested hierarchy (without calling it that) in 1736.

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Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 73 of 218 (822536)
10-27-2017 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Dredge
10-26-2017 11:43 PM


Classifying the Platypus
quote:
Domain: Eukarya
The Platypus has Eukaryotic cells with membrane bound organelles.
Kingdom: Animalia
The Platypus responds to stimuli and are multicelluar organisms.
Phylum: Chordata
The Platypus has a ventral nerve cord, pharyngeal slits and a tail. There are also three subphyla of Chordata, the Platypus belongs in the Vertebrata.
Class: Mammalia
The Platypus produces milk for the young through mammary glands like all mammals. It also is warm blooded and has three specialized bones in the ear for hearing, also it has no visible ears.
Order: Monotremata
A monotreme is simply a mammal that produces young by eggs instead of having live-birth.
Family: Ornithorhynchidae
The Platypus is the sole survivor of the whole family of the Ornithorhynchidae. They are characterized by having the duck-bill [very different from a duck's bill although similar appearance - JonF], a flat tail for swimming and have hard plates in the mouth, instead of teeth.
Genus: Ornithorhynchus
Any Ornithorhynchus is a member of the family, Ornithorhynchidae, in which case, it must be a Platypus!
Species: Ornithorhynchus anatinus
Fossilworks: Ornithorhynchidae :
quote:
Family Ornithorhynchidae Gray 1825 (platypus)
Osteichthyes - Monotremata
PaleoDB taxon number: 39738
Parent taxon: Monotremata according to T. Rowe et al. 2008
See also Archer et al. 1985, Archer et al. 1992, Bonaparte 1850, Carroll 1988, Cope 1889, Flower 1883, Flower and Lydekker 1891, Gelfo et al. 2007, Griffiths et al. 1991, Lydekker 1894, Nowak 1991, Pascual et al. 2002, Rich et al. 2005 and Woodburne and Tedford 1975
Sister taxa: Echidnidae, Kollikodontidae, Kryoryctes, Platypoda, Steropodontidae, Tachyglossa, Tachyglossidae
Subtaxa: Monotrematum, Obdurodon, Ornithorhynchus, Steropodon, Teinolophos
View classification
Ecology: scansorial insectivore-herbivore
Environments: fluvial (3 collections), terrestrial (2), (1), lacustrine (1), estuary/bay (1), mire/swamp (1), marginal marine (1)
Age range: 122.46 to 0.0 Ma
Distribution:
Quaternary of Australia (2 collections)
Pliocene of Australia (2)
Miocene of Australia (2)
Oligocene to Miocene of Australia (3)
Paleocene of Argentina (1)
Cretaceous of Australia (2)
Total: 12 collections each including a single occurrence
quote:
Come forth from thy oozy couch,
O Ornithorhynchus dear!
And greet with a cordial claw
The stranger that longs to hear
From thy own lips the tale
Of thy origin all unknown:
Thy misplaced bone where flesh should be
And flesh where should be bone;
And fishy fin where should be paw,
And beaver-trowel tail,
And snout of beast equip'd with teeth
Where gills ought to prevail.
Anonymous, quoted by Mark Twain

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 101 of 218 (823712)
11-15-2017 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dredge
11-15-2017 2:34 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
If you took the skeletons of all creatures in the world today, you could line them up to form lots of imaginary "evolutionary sequences". All you need to "join the dots" is a bit of imagination.
So you can easily show us an example of such. Including, of course, your rationale for arranging them in that particular order.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 108 by Dredge, posted 11-26-2017 6:49 AM JonF has not replied
 Message 109 by Dredge, posted 11-26-2017 6:54 AM JonF has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(2)
Message 111 of 218 (824316)
11-26-2017 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Dredge
11-26-2017 6:54 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
You're still not getting it.
You claimed it's easy to produce alternative nested hierarchies of life.
Show us several examples YOU HAVE CREATED.
And explain WHY YOU CREATED THOSE EXAMPLES AS YOU DID.
Your fevered hallucinations about why WE do what we do are irrelevant.
Of course you will never do it. You can't. Nobody can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Dredge, posted 11-26-2017 6:54 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 116 of 218 (824339)
11-27-2017 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Dredge
11-27-2017 5:11 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
So when you wrote:
quote:
If you took the skeletons of all creatures in the world today, you could line them up to form lots of imaginary "evolutionary sequences". All you need to "join the dots" is a bit of imagination. You can play the same meaningless game with fossils.
you were either lying or you have no imagination?

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 196 of 218 (825465)
12-15-2017 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Dredge
12-14-2017 10:37 PM


Forelimbs don't evolve into fins and wings - it's impossible.
Alas, reality is not affected by your ignorance.

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 197 of 218 (825466)
12-15-2017 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Dredge
12-14-2017 10:40 PM


If flying pigs don't exist, explain the photo in post #160.
Photoshop.

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 Message 190 by Dredge, posted 12-14-2017 10:40 PM Dredge has not replied

  
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