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Author Topic:   Why did Jesus kill the Pigs?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 45 (164268)
12-01-2004 3:36 AM


Listening to Christian radio this morning, I heard a sermon about
Jesus and the demoniac of Gaderene.
Matt 8:28-34
28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"
30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."
32 He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.
Also mentioned in Luke:
Luke 8:26-39
26 They sailed to the region of the Gerasenes,
which is across the lake from Galilee. 27 When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!" 29 For Jesus had commanded the evil spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places.
30 Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"
"Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him. 31 And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.
32 A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into them, and he gave them permission. 33 When the demons came out of the man, they went into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.
34 When those tending the pigs saw what had happened, they ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, 35 and the people went out to see what had happened. When they came to Jesus, they found the man from whom the demons had gone out, sitting at Jesus' feet, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 36 Those who had seen it told the people how the demon-possessed man had been cured. 37 Then all the people of the region of the Gerasenes asked Jesus to leave them, because they were overcome with fear. So he got into the boat and left.
38 The man from whom the demons had gone out begged to go with him, but Jesus sent him away, saying, 39 "Return home and tell how much God has done for you." So the man went away and told all over town how much Jesus had done for him.
Some observations:
The Demons beg Jesus to send them into the pigs and He says Yes.
The people beg Jesus to leave the region and He says Yes.
The ex-demoniac begs Jesus to let him come with Him, and Jesus says No.
Whats up with this cruel tale of pig murder?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-01-2004 2:14 PM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 45 (164435)
12-01-2004 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by PurpleYouko
12-01-2004 2:14 PM


Re: Pigs huh?
Listen to this excerpt from the news which I could not post a link to so I copied here:
When Pigs Swam
by Alan J Stein
After WWII, the local population surrounding Kirkland started dwindling almost as quickly as it had grown five years earlier. The Kirkland Chamber of Commerce took notice of this and did not like it one bit. How do you get folks to move to Kirkland when all the jobs are in Seattle? Simple. By promoting the city as a bedroom community. Work there, live here. And how do you let everyone know where Kirkland is located? How else? Throw a party!
And throw a party they did. In fact, Kirkland's first summer festival was so big and so much fun, that newspapermen swooped in from around the country. It was broadcast from coast-to-coast over the radio. Newsreels of it were later shown in movie theatres everywhere. All of this frenzy stemmed from one of the events: Pig-swimming races in Lake Washington.
To understand this bizarre media phenomenon, you have to look at the pulse of the nation in 1946. People had just come out of a war which involved many sacrifices and hardships. Prior to that, they had persevered throughout a decade of economic hardship. The summer of 1946 was the first summer in over 15 years that people had a chance to collectively blow off some steam and laugh at the quirky things in life, such as racing pigs in a lake. Art Needham was the chairman for the summer festival committee, but the idea of racing pigs came from Ray Daughters, swimming coach for the Washington Athletic Club. The race was to be one part of the August 17 weekend festival, but once the news outlets picked up on the story, it quickly became the star attraction.
Initially, there were a few complaints about animal cruelty, and a representative from the Humane Society was asked to comment. He visited Kirkland and complimented the committee for the fine handling of the event, pointing out that pigs can actually swim quite well, a fact that most people were unaware of.
Local pig farms, along with other groups and individuals, entered their best swimmers. KOMO radio entered a pig named Omak. Pacific Farms' entrant was Rose of Normandie. The Seattle American Legion enlisted Old Sarge. Ray Daughters signed up his own pig, Salome. Even well-known radio comedian Bob Burns, who joked about his Arkansas Razorbacks on his broadcasts, planned on coming to town and entered his own porker, Wafford. As the race neared, newsmen started covering the city. On July 30 a trial run of four pigs was previewed by newsreel cameras, radiomen, newspaper reporters and photographers. Having newspeople in town over the next three weeks only added to the already growing interest over the coming festival.(Kirkland News)
So...It is a fact that Pigs CAN swim. What happened at Gadarene?
Brian writes:
I always wondered what the poor pig farmer had done to deserve having his livelihood taken away!
Or maybe Jesus was allowing justice on a community that had excommunicated the demoniac and left him to die rather than helping him. They cared more about their own livelihood, which Jesus allowed Satan to destroy. Why else would Jesus "allow" the demons to do such a thing? Why not just zap them into the abyss?
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-01-2004 05:07 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-01-2004 2:14 PM PurpleYouko has not replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 45 (509033)
05-18-2009 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Jon_the_Second
01-14-2005 3:10 AM


Re: Pagan connection
Jon writes:
Has anyone noticed the similarities to the Pagan Eleusinian Mysteries which had ritual pig washing in the sea?
I had to look this one up! Eleusinian_Mysteries
Are you suggesting that the death of the pigs was some giant ritualistic sacrifice?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Jon_the_Second, posted 01-14-2005 3:10 AM Jon_the_Second has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by purpledawn, posted 05-19-2009 9:57 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 19 of 45 (538238)
12-04-2009 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by purpledawn
05-19-2009 9:57 AM


Re: Roman Connection
Thats an interesting hypothesis, PD.
  • Did Jesus have any power beyond that of a mere man? If so, why give the demons a vessel that they want? Why hurt the poor pigs? Even pigs were creatures whom God must have cared about!(Dietary laws notwithstanding)
  • IF Jesus was only human, your explanation would make a lot of sense, and the Bible would be further shown to have been written by humans in order to teach theological philosophy to other humans.
    Does anyone else have any ideas?

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 15 by purpledawn, posted 05-19-2009 9:57 AM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 24 of 45 (620601)
    06-18-2011 6:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Brian
    12-01-2004 2:46 PM


    Re: Pigs huh?
    quote:
    I always wondered what the poor pig farmer had done to deserve having his livelihood taken away!
    Yes, it seems rather cruel to take a mans livelihood away simply to explain something.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by Brian, posted 12-01-2004 2:46 PM Brian has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 26 of 45 (822574)
    10-28-2017 8:45 AM
    Reply to: Message 23 by anglagard
    04-05-2010 2:58 AM


    Re: Boogeymen and Demonization
    Topic Remix:
    .
    Matt 8:28-34
    28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"
    30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."
    32 He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.
    Also mentioned in Luke:
    Luke 8:26-39
    26 They sailed to the region of the Gerasenes,
    which is across the lake from Galilee. 27 When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!" 29 For Jesus had commanded the evil spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places.
    30 Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"
    "Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him. 31 And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.
    32 A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into them, and he gave them permission. 33 When the demons came out of the man, they went into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.
    34 When those tending the pigs saw what had happened, they ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, 35 and the people went out to see what had happened. When they came to Jesus, they found the man from whom the demons had gone out, sitting at Jesus' feet, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 36 Those who had seen it told the people how the demon-possessed man had been cured. 37 Then all the people of the region of the Gerasenes asked Jesus to leave them, because they were overcome with fear. So he got into the boat and left.
    38 The man from whom the demons had gone out begged to go with him, but Jesus sent him away, saying, 39 "Return home and tell how much God has done for you." So the man went away and told all over town how much Jesus had done for him.
    Whats up with this parable and cruel tale of Pig Murder?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by anglagard, posted 04-05-2010 2:58 AM anglagard has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 27 by jar, posted 10-28-2017 9:17 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 28 of 45 (822578)
    10-28-2017 11:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 27 by jar
    10-28-2017 9:17 AM


    Re: Boogeymen and Demonization
    jar writes:
    Looks like you and the whole town missed the point and what's up with the parable is that most folk miss the point.
    Enlighten us, O teacher.
    Why would Jesus destroy the livelihood of a region or family?
    Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by jar, posted 10-28-2017 9:17 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 29 by jar, posted 10-28-2017 11:44 AM Phat has replied
     Message 30 by ringo, posted 10-28-2017 11:51 AM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 31 of 45 (822584)
    10-28-2017 12:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 30 by ringo
    10-28-2017 11:51 AM


    Re: Boogeymen and Demonization
    Sherman, unlike Jesus, was a military general. Two totally different personalities.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 30 by ringo, posted 10-28-2017 11:51 AM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 32 by ringo, posted 10-28-2017 12:25 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 35 of 45 (822595)
    10-29-2017 3:24 AM
    Reply to: Message 34 by jar
    10-28-2017 8:46 PM


    Re: Boogeymen and Demonization
    Didn't he bring the Galileen Dozen with him?
    Sure but there is no evidence that this group indulged in any forceful or violent acts unless they were getting arrested. The mystery remains why Jesus would allow the demons from one guy to destroy the livelihood of another innocent victim. A herd of pigs may have represented one mans entire fortune. No wonder the people wanted Him to leave their town. So he cures one crazy loon...but at what expense?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 34 by jar, posted 10-28-2017 8:46 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 36 by jar, posted 10-29-2017 6:31 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 37 of 45 (822623)
    10-30-2017 1:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 29 by jar
    10-28-2017 11:44 AM


    Motive...Who Received Healing?
    jar writes:
    Throw "describing the destruction of a livelihood" away and go back to the story.
    OK.
    So if the story was a Jewish one, getting rid of the pigs was only helping everyone.
    The non-Jews still wanted Jesus to leave, however. Perhaps I was seeing it from their perspective...he was not helping them much at all.
    Another question arises as to the belief of the man possessed. Was he a Jew fallen on hard mental times? Or was he one of the others?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 29 by jar, posted 10-28-2017 11:44 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 38 by jar, posted 10-30-2017 4:08 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 39 of 45 (822643)
    10-30-2017 4:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 38 by jar
    10-30-2017 4:08 PM


    Re: Motive...Who Received Healing?
    Yes. The supernatural.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 38 by jar, posted 10-30-2017 4:08 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 40 by jar, posted 10-30-2017 4:48 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 41 of 45 (822769)
    11-01-2017 12:15 PM
    Reply to: Message 40 by jar
    10-30-2017 4:48 PM


    Re: Motive...Who Received Healing?
    So did Jesus come for the Jews or for everyone?
    And if so, why are you against Pauls new Religion?

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by jar, posted 10-30-2017 4:48 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 42 by jar, posted 11-01-2017 1:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 43 of 45 (823917)
    11-19-2017 9:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 32 by ringo
    10-28-2017 12:25 PM


    Challenging The Status Quo
    Interesting article online...which says what I wanted to say better than I could.
    quote:
    Here are 4 ways Jesus challenged the status quo.
    1. JESUS REJECTED BUSINESS AS USUAL.
    In the large city of Jerusalem, he attacked the money changers, who were running a racket swapping temple shekels for Roman money at a profit. He didn’t just chew them out, he physically chased them out. When a corrupt tax collector decided to follow Jesus, he returned all his ill-gotten gains and then some. Business as usual just couldn’t continue when Jesus got involved.
    And then there were his frequent warnings about wealth. It was easier for a camel to squeeze through the eye of a needle, he said, than for a rich person to get into God’s kingdom. He told stories about rich fools headed for hellfire and poor widows who captured the heart of God. One pious tycoon was asked to sell everything and give the proceeds to the poor. No one can serve both God and money, Jesus said. That kind of teaching made more than a few enemies among those who would profit from the status quo.
    2. JESUS TURNED THE LAW ON ITS HEAD.
    While he didn’t break Roman law, there were hundreds of complex and burdensome religious laws that the religious leaders had added to Scripture. Jesus railed against a religion that focused more on rules than people — more on obedience than love. For example, the Bible says Jesus intentionally healed people on the Sabbath, knowing it would violate the religious law. The Sabbath was made for people, and not people for the Sabbath, he said.
    There were a lot of these run-ins with the Pharisees, the religious class of his day. Jesus berated them for hypocrisy and corruption. In turn, they accused him of hanging out with the wrong kind of people. What self-respecting leader would go to parties with prostitutes and swindlers? They called Jesus a friend of sinners, and the crazy part is — he didn’t seem to mind.
    3. JESUS SHUNNED POLITICS.
    If you think our politics are complicated, take a look at the time in which Jesus lived. The Romans had been occupying and oppressing his home country for about a century. Some groups tried to appease them, others coexisted, and still others fought back. Among his disciples, Jesus had at least one rebel (Simon the Zealot), and Judas Iscariot’s last name might indicate a connection to the Sicari, who were hardcore Jewish freedom fighters.
    People flocked to hear Jesus, but he generally avoided political messagingbut he did talk about the kingdom of God. Some people would definitely see that as a return to Jewish independence, with a God-ordained king in charge. According to one Gospel, after Jesus miraculously fed a crowd of more than 5,000, the people surrounded him, intending to make him a king, but Jesus walked away. As he explained later to Pontius Pilate, My kingdom is not of this world.
    4. JESUS MADE OUTRAGEOUS CLAIMS.
    Early in his career, at his hometown synagogue, Jesus read a prophecy about a savior and announced that it was coming true right in front of them. When he scolded them for disbelief, they tried to kill him.
    In general, Jesus avoided sounding blasphemous, but when other people started calling him Messiah or Son of God, he didn’t correct them. When he healed people, he often asked them to keep quiet about it, but they rushed out and told their stories (wouldn’t we all?), which spread like wildfire.
    Yet Jesus also fed the fury, declaring that he existed before Abraham and that he was one with God. In a dispute at the holiest site in Jerusalem, he said, Tear down this temple and in three days I will build it again. The religious leaders treated it like a terrorist threat, but the temple he was actually talking about was his own body. He was forecasting his own resurrection.
    NoNukes is right. I am trying to get my head together again, and I am finding that I dont even like some of what my own religion of choice teaches. I prefer Pauls more than conquerors speech rather than Jesus sell all that you have admonitions. And when Jesus killed the pigs, he evidently cared nothing for the livlihood of some of the people. And livlihood is what is keeping me up at night worrying!

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 32 by ringo, posted 10-28-2017 12:25 PM ringo has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 44 by ringo, posted 11-19-2017 1:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
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