Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   For All Hallows Eve
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2 of 72 (822721)
10-31-2017 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
10-31-2017 5:11 PM


a bit of history
Do you know the history of All Hallows Eve? I may not have it exactly right but as I recall it began as a commemoration of the Christian martyrs of the early persecutions, All Hallows Day, or All Saints Day, so many of them they got a day on the calendar as a group in contrast to the usual practice of giving a single saint a day of his or her own. I don't know how the "Eve" part got emphasized but it morphed from a general honoring of "the dead in Christ" to a celebration of "the dead," period, then acquired all the ghostie-ghoulie-beastie stuff. It became the favorite day for witchery and demonic activity and superstitious Europeans carved ferocious-looking jack o'lanterns to ward off the demonic nasties that threatened to do them harm if they weren't placated with a "treat" or sacrifice or some such. Same idea as the gargoyles on the cathedrals. It no doubt got blurred with earlier pagan rites as well. Something like that as I recall. From a day to honor the early Christian martyrs to a celebration of ghoulishness. Anyone please feel free to correct my memory.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 10-31-2017 5:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 10-31-2017 5:31 PM Faith has replied
 Message 8 by Modulous, posted 10-31-2017 8:01 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 26 by ringo, posted 11-01-2017 3:43 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4 of 72 (822725)
10-31-2017 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
10-31-2017 5:31 PM


Re: a bit of history
As I understand it, Mardi Gras is a day to carouse and glut and commit every sin you can think of before Ash Wednesday, which begins the period of Lent when you have to fast and otherwise afflict yourself in anticipation of Easter. In a way it's been Satan's holiday from its inception, but Halloween morphed into that from its basically Christian beginnings. There do seem to be some elements in common but their history is different.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 10-31-2017 5:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 10-31-2017 5:43 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 6 of 72 (822728)
10-31-2017 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
10-31-2017 5:43 PM


Re: a bit of history
Well what would a day to celebrate and indulge in sin be but a Satan's holiday? And what would a day to celebrate ghosties and ghoulies be but the same? The former was consciously devised as a day to indulge the flesh which is a sort of complaint about the anticipated strictures of Lent
Of course all of this is very Catholic, all the days to honor saints being perhaps innocent enough in the beginning but contrary to Christian doctrine in spirit. Lent was also a Catholic invention the RCC imposed on the people, but Mardi Gras was a simple pagan response to all that.
I was just reading up on the Day of the Dead in Mexico, which started out as an indigenous observance and later got aligned with Halloween. At first it was a day to honor dead ancestors, and the Catholic Church opposed it, which it may still or at least some traditional elements of the RCC may, I'm not sure about that. But it got blurred with Catholicism in the minds of the people, as so often happens.
The images of skulls that are part of the celebration, same as the images of ghosts at Halloween, are certainly at odds with any true Christian spirit. Delebrating the martydoms of Christians just has nothing to do with death as such, since we know they are all with the living Lord Jesus waiting for the final resurrection, and their bones are meaningless.
Ghosts and bones both contrast with the Chrsitian views of salvation and resurrection. And of course so do the images of witches and devices to ward off demons. Christ defeated Satan and his demons at the cross, and the witches who consort with them, and all we have to do is appeal to Him for protection if needed, there is no need for pagan devices for protection from them, which are powerless anyway.
But of course the original meaning of all these things is pretty much lost in today's celebrations anyway, which are just an excuse to have fun, dress up and eat candy.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 10-31-2017 5:43 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 10-31-2017 6:54 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 17 of 72 (822758)
11-01-2017 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Son Goku
11-01-2017 7:15 AM


Re: Samhain
In a way it's been Satan's holiday from its inception
a day to indulge the flesh
Ghosts and bones both contrast with the Chrsitian views of salvation and resurrection
Faith, it's kids asking for sweets at doors.
T'weren't always so though, that's a very new version of it. And my point was that the imagery and intent of Mardi Gras (indulging the flesh) and Halloween as well as Dia de los Muertos (ghosts and bones/skulls) shows that they are not Christian in spirt, that's all, they are pagan. Today few remember much about their origins. (see Message 6)
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Son Goku, posted 11-01-2017 7:15 AM Son Goku has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Son Goku, posted 11-01-2017 12:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 18 of 72 (822759)
11-01-2017 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
11-01-2017 6:09 AM


Christmas and Easter and Pentecost and Lent and Maundy Thursday and Good Friday and All Hallows Eve and All Saints Day and Advent are all simply re-purposed pagan holidays.
But only two of them could be said to be genuinely Christian (biblical) anyway, Pentecost and Easter (Passover), all the rest were made up by6 the Church later on.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 11-01-2017 6:09 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 11-01-2017 11:57 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 20 of 72 (822765)
11-01-2017 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
11-01-2017 11:57 AM


Passover was given by God to the Israelites some 1500 or so years before Christ, and since the New Testament is to be our source of understanding of the Old Testament, we know that Passover was always a messianic prophecy. It was finally fulfilled by Jesus on the cross as our sacrificed "Lamb of God" who "takes away the sins of the world," removing our sentence of death under the Moral Law, just as the blood of the original Passover lamb painted on the door frames protected the Israelites in the house from the angel of death.
Pentecost is indeed modeled on a harvest theme, the "first fruits" of the harvest, understood in the New Testament to be symbolic of the spiritual baptism of Christ Jesus' followers, as the Holy Spirit was given to the Church on that day.
In any case both are in scripture as God-given observances, and all the rest on your list are later traditions.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 11-01-2017 11:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 11-01-2017 12:53 PM Faith has replied
 Message 24 by Son Goku, posted 11-01-2017 1:18 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 23 of 72 (822783)
11-01-2017 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
11-01-2017 12:53 PM


You always manage to assert something that contradicts the entire history of Christian theology as developed by the best theologians. Nobody should pay the slightest attention to anything you say about Christianity, it will only mislead them, but at EvC unfortunately you can get away with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by jar, posted 11-01-2017 12:53 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 11-01-2017 2:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 27 of 72 (822867)
11-02-2017 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Son Goku
11-01-2017 1:18 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
since the New Testament is to be our source of understanding of the Old Testament, we know that Passover was always a messianic prophecy
Where in the New Testament does it state this?
The New Testament shows more than it actually says, it's subtle and sophisticated in its teaching. The Passover is implied in calling Jesus the Lamb of God for starters, as John does frequently in his wriitings, also in any mentions of His blood as shed for us.
In 1 Corinthians 5:7 Jesus is literally called "Christ our Passover."
At the Last Supper, Jesus tells His disciples "This is My body which is given for you. Also, " For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. "
All these identify Jesus as the Passover Lamb. Along with the fact that he was crucified on the Passover itself and so on.
He was the fulfillment of ALL the animal sacrifices for sin made throughout the OT, but most particularly the Passover Lamb. Hebrews 9:12-14 describes Him as the ultimate sacrifice:
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Son Goku, posted 11-01-2017 1:18 PM Son Goku has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 11-02-2017 7:18 PM Faith has replied
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 11-03-2017 12:04 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 32 of 72 (822930)
11-03-2017 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by ringo
11-03-2017 12:04 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
Of COURSE it's figurative. Sheesh. It means Christ functions for us as the lamb slaughtered for passover functions, as a sacrifice that protects us from eternal death. His blood protects us from the angel of death as the original Passover lamb did. In this case the "second death" or eternal suffering.
The trouble with critics of the claim to literalness is that you take it way too literally. But since you do it's not the best word: what is meant is that we read the bible as it is meant to be read.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ringo, posted 11-03-2017 12:04 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 11-05-2017 1:23 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 33 of 72 (822932)
11-03-2017 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
11-02-2017 7:18 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
Well since you put yourself above the entire history of Christian theology, two thousand years' worth of the world's best theologians, I guess you feel you and you alone can tell us what scripture means since they are obviously idiots and you have some special ability to read scripture they and all the rest of us lack.
What is your evidence that the scripture was invented to pretend to fulfilled prophecy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 11-02-2017 7:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 5:15 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 34 of 72 (822934)
11-03-2017 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
11-03-2017 3:43 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
Some of the most famous modern textual critics admit to being unbelievers, even to such things as denying that the obviously prophetic Book of Daniel is in fact prophetic. I forget his name, the most famous one, he doesn't mind destroying the narrative continuity of the book and accusing Daniel of lying about when he wrote it, just because he doesn't believe in prophecy. It's crazy that these guys got any authority in Biblical criticism at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 11-03-2017 3:43 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 35 of 72 (822935)
11-03-2017 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
11-03-2017 4:17 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
Sorry, the theologians understand that prophecy in the OT is often cryptic; it takes spiritual acumen to recognize it. This is so that Satan and insincere people can't understand it. But nobody has to work TOO hard to see the truth: the NT makes clear what was meant as prophecy and is now fulfilled. Jesus himself told the disciples on the way to Emmaus that the OT is all about Him. To you that means he's lying or the writers of the passage are lying. You really have some nerve the way you put yourself above scripture and Christian exegetical history.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 4:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Taq, posted 11-03-2017 4:52 PM Faith has replied
 Message 39 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 5:19 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 37 of 72 (822937)
11-03-2017 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Taq
11-03-2017 4:52 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
You'd have to have a couple of millennia of testimony from millions as well as the work of great theologians interpreting the scriptures before you'd have any chance of being taken seriously by serious people. Perhaps you'd get a small following from your EvC buds though. Sometimes that is enough to get a small movement going. Have fun.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Taq, posted 11-03-2017 4:52 PM Taq has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 40 of 72 (822942)
11-03-2017 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by jar
11-03-2017 5:15 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
That's a big fat lie of the modern critics that the NT was written long after the events. Jesus said the OT is about him and if you know how to read it correctly, which obviously you don't, you can find him on every page.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 5:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-03-2017 6:21 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 42 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 6:35 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 45 of 72 (822951)
11-03-2017 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
11-03-2017 6:35 PM


Re: Messianic Passover
Of course it was written after Jesus died, but not LONG after, most of it was before 60 AD. Those that do not allude at all to the major event of 70 AD, the destruction of the temple, were earlier than that date at least. John wrote the Book of Revelation in his nineties but his other writings long before that. They were written after years of preaching the same content too, so the material was still fresh when it was written.
The Old testament is all about Jesus, as He said. Too bad you don't know how to read scripture or you'd know that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 6:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by PaulK, posted 11-04-2017 3:46 AM Faith has replied
 Message 50 by jar, posted 11-04-2017 7:49 AM Faith has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024