The Tension of Faith

Bullshit Phat.Christianity, the religion, is based 100% on what people believe and not on anything they do. That is why there are hundreds if not thousands of different versions of Christianity. There is no such things as "Christianity"; instead it is an evolving creation of each of the different Chapters of Club Christian and reflects the independent beliefs of each of those creations.What you may have meant to say is that my belief is that Christians (as well as all others) should do what the Bible claims Jesus said everyone (not just Christians) should do.But that is my belief.Other Christians market a Christianity based on "Not Prefect, Just Saved" or on "Born Again" or on "The essence of Christianity is Christs Death, Resurrection and ascension" or "Washed in the Blood of the Lamb" or "Onward Christian Soldiers" and on and on.Nowhere is Christianity based on what we do.It is always what we believe.

What you do matters 1000% more than what you believe.

Under the circumstances, it's difficult to imagine it was directed at anyone else.....But I'm not bothered whether it was at me, at a different atheist or at all atheists generally, your language betrays an interesting prejudice. Atheists apparently are guilty of something and are hiding it. What is it? Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

It odd then that you keep repeating the claim. That's because such a claim needs evidence to support it. And not just any old evidence, really strong evidence because it flies in the face of all our knowledge of our physical world. And you have none at all. Which you admit next: Your entire belief system depends on the writers of your antique book being correct - and you don't even know who the authors were!

Perhaps it is that they won't believe without evidence. I am not so worried that the existence of God supersedes natural laws in certain circumstances. You, of course, would call it wishful thinking and fantasy-based.

I would use the marketing slogan "Christianity is Christ".You would then ask what that even meant.I would reply with another slogan...Its not a religion, its a relationship...You would likely go "Huh"? and tell me that my bumper sticker theology was likely word salad.Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Yes, I see. You believe in personal responsibility towards others even if Jesus was simply a fictional character in a book. I liked another answer that you gave years ago, in Who Can Be Saved? A Christian Perspective where you said in message 43 Because in this statement you at least affirmed that Christ's death had value. I keep forgetting that you were trained at an early age to take on a variety of arguments which did not necessarily reflect your personal beliefs.My belief depends more on Christ existing and being who He is rather than on my personal responsibility to society.

But again those are examples of what you believe and as I pointed out, beliefs do not need to have any connection with reality or reason or logic or even actual meaning.What you post is not related to actions, you have never explained what it means, It is a series of slogans that someone created and you accepted and so it is the Christianity you created, the Christ you created, the God you created.The Gods of the Bible are the same thing. The God in Genesis 1 would never even consider walking with you or even having any contact with you at all. The God in Genesis 2&3 would be really friendly and walk with you but expect you to do something that was totally impossible for you to do and as soon as you got the tools you need to do what was expected punish you for getting the tool and kick you out of the hose because the God was afraid you might get other tools. The God in Exodus would tell you to do something and when you said "sure, I'll do it" the God magically changes your answer from Yes to No and then punishes you.Each author was writing about beliefs. Each author created the God Character needed for that story.

There you go again. What does that mean?Granted, that is your "belief" but does it really mean anything?

Even though this line of thought makes me uncomfortable, I'll go with it for now.Reason being that I need a God character who is real, not one I make up.We have argued before about this and about how I create a God who favors Phat.
The fact is, I could not live with a GOD who treated me no different from pond scum. You, on the other hand, have no problem even if God did not exist you would still believe in the Christianity that you market...one that favors no jew or Christian or individual above the group. You need personal responsibility...I reluctantly embrace it.

OK Faith. Just which part are you going to choose here. This is from 2nd Samuel 24. Yahweh is mad at the Israelites and tells David to take a census as we can see.

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1 Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.
2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders with him, Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.
3 But Joab replied to the king, May the LORD your God multiply the troops a hundred times over, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king want to do such a thing?
4 The king’s word, however, overruled Joab and the army commanders; so they left the presence of the king to enroll the fighting men of Israel.
5 After crossing the Jordan, they camped near Aroer, south of the town in the gorge, and then went through Gad and on to Jazer.
6 They went to Gilead and the region of Tahtim Hodshi, and on to Dan Jaan and around toward Sidon.
7 Then they went toward the fortress of Tyre and all the towns of the Hivites and Canaanites. Finally, they went on to Beersheba in the Negev of Judah.
8 After they had gone through the entire land, they came back to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days.
9 Joab reported the number of the fighting men to the king: In Israel there were eight hundred thousand able-bodied men who could handle a sword, and in Judah five hundred thousand.

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Now then we go to the next verse and David is conscience-stricken for having done what Yahweh told him to do and asks for forgiveness.

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10 David was conscience-stricken after he had counted the fighting men, and he said to the LORD, I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, LORD, I beg you, take away the guilt of your servant. I have done a very foolish thing.

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Now it gets stranger because even though Yahweh told David to take this census He punishes the Jews by bringing a plague and killing 70,000 of them.

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11 Before David got up the next morning, the word of the LORD had come to Gad the prophet, David’s seer: 12 Go and tell David, ‘This is what the LORD says: I am giving you three options. Choose one of them for me to carry out against you.’ 13 So Gad went to David and said to him, Shall there come on you three years of famine in your land? Or three months of fleeing from your enemies while they pursue you? Or three days of plague in your land? Now then, think it over and decide how I should answer the one who sent me. 14 David said to Gad, I am in deep distress. Let us fall into the hands of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but do not let me fall into human hands. 15 So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the end of the time designated, and seventy thousand of the people from Dan to Beersheba died.

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To sum this up then we have Yahweh telling David to take a census, David complies but then feels guilty about doing what Yahweh told him to do and asks forgiveness. An unforgiving Yahweh though doesn’t even take it out on David but causes 70,000 of his chosen people to die.You would have us believe that the writer of 2nd Samuel got this exactly correct.Now however it gets more interesting because we go to 1st Chronicles and this is what the writer of that book tells us.

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1 Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and the commanders of the troops, Go and count the Israelites from Beersheba to Dan. Then report back to me so that I may know how many there are.

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So now this writer is saying not that it was the Lord, as claimed in 1st Samuel, but that it is Satan and then goes on to tell how Yahweh killed 70,000 of the Israelites.Firstly then why is God slaughtering His chosen people for what David did? Does this sound remotely like God as we see Him embodied by Jesus?Secondly was it the writer of 2nd Samuel who says it was the Lord who told David to take the census, or did the writer of 1st Chronicles get it right when he says it was Satan? They can't both be right.

The issue is not related to a line of thought but rather what the evidence shows. In the Bible stories the God Character constantly changes personality and traits to fit the needs of each story. In the Bible, God is not some single entity but a recitation of different beliefs and belief systems and laws and customs and politics and tribal relationships and national identities.This is the foundation of "The Tension of Faith" regardless of the faith under discussion.Buddhism is likely one of the least discordant examples while Christianity is likely an example of most discordant religions.Buddhism was created based on the behavior and teaching of one person over a relatively long period. But while it is a religion it does not have a God and very much like what Jesus actually taught, is almost entirely behavior based.Buddha created the Middle Way about 400 years or so before Jesus. It is less discordant because there was an acknowledgement from the beginning that it was based on the teachings and not the person and was not a continuation of anything that came before.Christianity is far far messier. First, the Buddha made it clear from the beginning that he had tried the existing religions and rejected both; some of the alleged quotations from Jesus suggest he felt the same but there the tension begins; almost immediately those comments are mixed in with ones where Jesus is quoted as accepting the existing religion but just wants to reform it.Christianity is discordant for another major factor. Jesus teachings cover a period of only three years. The Buddha though taught for a period of 45 years. Those who came after Jesus and created the nascent initial branch of Judaism tried to incorporate all of the prior Jewish writings and somehow force fit Jesus into those prior creations. The next iteration as seen in Paul's writings and the author of John create additional discordance. There were even arguments about whether or not people or children of folk already in the club could even join the club.Buddhism started with a clean slate and from beginning to end is primarily oriented around how people should behave. Jesus teachings as recorded in the Bible stories reflect much of what the Buddha taught and are primarily about how people should behave. But in Christianity the actual teachings are lost in thousands of years of Hebrew Cultural Mythos and about a hundred years of post Jesus politicking, editorial and interoffice memos and then a couple thousand years of Christian Cultism and revolution and politics and reformation.How could there be anything but tension in Christianity?

So you think Jesus said, "Inasmuch as ye have done it reluctantly unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

You think that if Jesus says "jump" I ask how high? I'm as rebellious as the next guy...

But you're not asking how high. You're saying it's more important to believe Jesus said it than to do it.Suppose He was saying, "Duck!" Does it matter who says it? Or should you just duck before you get your head blown off?