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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 466 of 1540 (822941)
11-03-2017 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 461 by GDR
11-03-2017 10:32 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
GDR, the first rule of Bible understanding is to assume if it seems to be contradictory the fault is your own. I'm serious. If you are unable to resolve it you just have to leave it for some future time when you may be able to. That's the only reasonable way one could possibly treat a communication understood to be God's own inspired Word.
In this case the key is in God's "inciting" David against Israel out of wrath against Israel. And other versions say it was Satan who did the inciting. See Got questions?
I'd have to spend more time researching to be sure I have the best explanation of this, but as I've understood it, the taking of a census, which is usually for the purpose of assessing the military strength of Israel against enemies, implies distrust of God, who as the leader of Israel's armies can bring victory from small numbers if necessary. See the example of Gideon. We are to commit everything to God in faith and not rely on our own judgments.
But again, the best general policy is that if there is a seeming contradiction in scripture, assume there is a reasonable explanation even if you don't know what it is yet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by GDR, posted 11-03-2017 10:32 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by PaulK, posted 11-03-2017 5:47 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 468 by GDR, posted 11-03-2017 6:00 PM Faith has replied
 Message 608 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-13-2017 11:18 AM Faith has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 467 of 1540 (822944)
11-03-2017 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Faith
11-03-2017 5:36 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
quote:
GDR, the first rule of Bible understanding is to assume if it seems to be contradictory the fault is your own. I'm serious
More accurately the first rule of the Biblical Inerrancy doctrine is that the Bible must be forced to fit the doctrine.
quote:
That's the only reasonable way one could possibly treat a communication understood to be God's own inspired Word.
Please explain how twisting the text to fit your beliefs is even a reasonable way of treating a communication understood to be God's own inspired Word

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 5:36 PM Faith has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 468 of 1540 (822945)
11-03-2017 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Faith
11-03-2017 5:36 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Faith writes:
GDR, the first rule of Bible understanding is to assume if it seems to be contradictory the fault is your own. I'm serious. If you are unable to resolve it you just have to leave it for some future time when you may be able to. That's the only reasonable way one could possibly treat a communication understood to be God's own inspired Word.
Thanks for providing an answer even if I do think you are making a serious error in how God communicates to us through the Scriptures. I just reiterate, that just because God inspired people to write their stories does not make them inerrant. As I've said before they are inspired but not dictated.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 5:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 11:11 PM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 469 of 1540 (822956)
11-03-2017 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by GDR
11-03-2017 6:00 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
OK so I can say my piece again too. "Inspired by God" means it conveys what God wants conveyed, and what God wants conveyed cannot be in error, or who do you think God is anyway? You don't think He can guide the exact message He wants written? You don't think He has the power to protect it and guarantee it? We know God is all=powerful but you and others shrink Him down to something petty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by GDR, posted 11-03-2017 6:00 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 470 by GDR, posted 11-04-2017 1:00 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 471 by PaulK, posted 11-04-2017 3:58 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 472 by Tangle, posted 11-04-2017 6:35 AM Faith has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 470 of 1540 (822960)
11-04-2017 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 469 by Faith
11-03-2017 11:11 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Faith writes:
You don't think He can guide the exact message He wants written? You don't think He has the power to protect it and guarantee it?
The question isn't whether He can or not. The question is did He or not, and it is evident that when you read what I quoted earlier that He didn't.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 11:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 471 of 1540 (822963)
11-04-2017 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 469 by Faith
11-03-2017 11:11 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
quote:
OK so I can say my piece again too. "Inspired by God" means it conveys what God wants conveyed, and what God wants conveyed cannot be in error, or who do you think God is anyway?
Which leaves wide open the question of what God wanted conveyed. And there are major differences in views about that. The idea that the whole story - read literally - is only one idea, and one that leads to obvious problems.
To a Biblical Inerrantist torturing the text to extract the message they want is the correct way to read the Bible. The strange stories they invent trying to reconcile the two accounts of Judas’ death, for instance, are supposedly the message God wanted conveyed. Which really raises the question of why God would communicate so poorly - and which of these invented stories is the one He really wanted to convey?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 11:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 472 of 1540 (822965)
11-04-2017 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 469 by Faith
11-03-2017 11:11 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Faith writes:
OK so I can say my piece again too. "Inspired by God" means it conveys what God wants conveyed, and what God wants conveyed cannot be in error
Well I think you just disproved the existence of god.
If what you say is true, then I would believe what you believe. His message has not been conveyed has it?
In fact it's been so unsuccessfully conveyed that the various interpretations of it have have created believers that have killed each other over its meaning for centuries.
Your God must be the poorest communicator the world has ever seen.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Faith, posted 11-03-2017 11:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by Faith, posted 11-04-2017 12:16 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 477 by Phat, posted 11-04-2017 1:05 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 473 of 1540 (822976)
11-04-2017 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by Tangle
11-04-2017 6:35 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Oh it has been conveyed, to those He wants it conveyed to.
I've quoted Pascal on this before: Scripture contains enough light to guide believers while enough obscurity to keep unbelievers in the dark.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by Tangle, posted 11-04-2017 6:35 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by Tangle, posted 11-04-2017 12:29 PM Faith has replied
 Message 478 by Percy, posted 11-04-2017 1:13 PM Faith has replied
 Message 484 by ringo, posted 11-05-2017 1:37 PM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 474 of 1540 (822980)
11-04-2017 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by Faith
11-04-2017 12:16 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Faith writes:
Oh it has been conveyed, to those He wants it conveyed to.
Can't you see what might be wrong with that?
Scripture contains enough light to guide believers while enough obscurity to keep unbelievers in the dark.
Or that?
Was it God's desire to only give a message to only those he wanted to get the message or to those who already believed? If so how could anyone believe?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by Faith, posted 11-04-2017 12:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 475 by Faith, posted 11-04-2017 12:31 PM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 475 of 1540 (822981)
11-04-2017 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 474 by Tangle
11-04-2017 12:29 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Faith is a gift.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 474 by Tangle, posted 11-04-2017 12:29 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 476 by jar, posted 11-04-2017 12:41 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 479 by Percy, posted 11-04-2017 1:18 PM Faith has replied
 Message 483 by Tangle, posted 11-05-2017 9:16 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 476 of 1540 (822983)
11-04-2017 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by Faith
11-04-2017 12:31 PM


Faith's pitiful goddlet.
Faith writes:
Faith is a gift.
How utterly pitiful, evil and despicable. What a picayune God you try to market.
Edited by jar, : . not , to end a sentence

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Faith, posted 11-04-2017 12:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 477 of 1540 (822989)
11-04-2017 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by Tangle
11-04-2017 6:35 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Tangle writes:
In fact it's been so unsuccessfully conveyed that the various interpretations of it have created believers that have killed each other over its meaning for centuries.
Your God must be the poorest communicator the world has ever seen.
Or perhaps it is the one who listens who has the problem. If God simply uploaded his truth into everyone's minds, there would be no room for faith and faith evidently is the preferred result rather than evidence. Of course, i can also see your argument. But isn't that human nature? Heck, we don't even all agree over global warming as a threat. Who could expect us to come to a consensus regarding faith?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by Tangle, posted 11-04-2017 6:35 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by ringo, posted 11-05-2017 1:42 PM Phat has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 478 of 1540 (822990)
11-04-2017 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by Faith
11-04-2017 12:16 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Faith writes:
Oh it has been conveyed, to those He wants it conveyed to.
This is something you believe on faith.
I've quoted Pascal on this before: Scripture contains enough light to guide believers while enough obscurity to keep unbelievers in the dark.
I've more often seen it quoted as, "There is enough light for those who only desire to see, and enough obscurity for those who have a contrary disposition," but the only obvious conclusion from Pascal's words is that one sees what one wants to see. Obviously what people see varies widely. The light isn't good enough for everyone to see the same thing.
I disagree with Pascal on another point, about the light being enough for those who only desire to see. Many desire to see but cannot find anything resembling what is found in any of the world's many holy books.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by Faith, posted 11-04-2017 12:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by Faith, posted 11-04-2017 7:42 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 479 of 1540 (822991)
11-04-2017 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 475 by Faith
11-04-2017 12:31 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Faith writes:
Faith is a gift.
How are you defining faith? In past discussions you've rejected a definition of faith as not having evidence for what you believe. If you still think that way then faith isn't a gift but just a matter of viewing the evidence.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 475 by Faith, posted 11-04-2017 12:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 480 by Faith, posted 11-04-2017 7:38 PM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 480 of 1540 (823004)
11-04-2017 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 479 by Percy
11-04-2017 1:18 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Yes I don't think you can believe in anything without evidence, it's simply impossible. But God gives us the ability to recognize the evidence as part of the gift of faith. There's no contradiction hard as you all try to come up with some.
ABE: Evidence doesn't contradict faith. The evidence gives us good reasons for having faith in God and his word and his character and his promises and so on. Witness evidence for instance. We then have reason to believe all kinds of things for which there is no clear evidence. "Faith is the evidence of things unseen, the substance of things hoped for." But there has to have been some evidence to convince a person to put that kind of trust in things that are otherwise unevidenced but merely stated.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 479 by Percy, posted 11-04-2017 1:18 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by Percy, posted 11-05-2017 9:03 AM Faith has replied

  
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