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Author Topic:   Genesis "kinds" may be Nested Hierarchies.
Taq
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Posts: 7271
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 76 of 171 (822553)
10-27-2017 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Dredge
10-26-2017 11:38 PM


Dredge writes:

Don't be silly. It's not an "observation". It's an atheist fable which got its inspiration from a science-fiction novel written by Charles Darwin. Darwin, in turn, got the inspiration for his novel while under the influence of a large dose of the hallucinogen, mescaline, when he was in South America.

Unless Darwin dreamt up over 100 years of Linnaean taxonomy that preceded him, you are simply wrong.


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jar
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Posts: 29749
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 77 of 171 (822554)
10-27-2017 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Taq
10-27-2017 11:49 AM


The Eggs have it
And, of course, humans hatch from eggs as well. It's funny but the egg in reproduction is pretty common among all reptiles and mammals and arachnids and amphibians and snakes and fish and ...

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

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Coragyps
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Posts: 5299
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 78 of 171 (822557)
10-27-2017 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Dredge
10-26-2017 11:38 PM


Dredge, you might be interested to learn that mescaline is found and used in northern Mexico, not in South America. Try ayahuasca, maybe. Or yerba mate. Or coffee.
This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
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Joined: 05-02-2006
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Message 79 of 171 (822559)
10-27-2017 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
10-27-2017 11:55 AM


Re: The Eggs have it
It's funny but the egg in reproduction is pretty common among all reptiles and mammals ...

AKA, amniota (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amniote):

quote:
Amniotes (from Greek ἀμνίον amnion, "membrane surrounding the fetus", earlier "bowl in which the blood of sacrificed animals was caught", from ἀμνός amnos, "lamb"[1]) are a clade of tetrapod vertebrates comprising the reptiles, birds, and mammals that lay their eggs on land or retain the fertilized egg within the mother.

Can you hear the creationists yelling? "But they're still AMNIOTES!!!!!!"


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 80 of 171 (822564)
10-27-2017 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Dredge
10-26-2017 11:38 PM


Don't be silly. It's not an "observation". It's an atheist fable which got its inspiration from a science-fiction novel written by Charles Darwin. Darwin, in turn, got the inspiration for his novel while under the influence of a large dose of the hallucinogen, mescaline, when he was in South America.

Don't you ever tell the truth?

You're religious, presumably, don't you worry about burning in hell while Satan spits the word LIAR! into your face forever, that sort of thing?


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Dredge
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Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 81 of 171 (823090)
11-06-2017 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
10-27-2017 11:55 AM


Re: The Eggs have it
Yes, and to think they all evolved from a bacterium that didn't produce eggs ...

Evolution is so amazing.


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Dredge
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Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 82 of 171 (823091)
11-06-2017 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by RAZD
10-27-2017 9:15 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
Oh, this is excellent junk science and classical Darwinism - "The fossilised Steropodon ... is composed of a an opalised lower jawbone with three molar teeth". Yep, one can tell a whole lot from just a jawbone with three teeth! Furthermore, this "ancestor" of the platypus had teeth, whereas the adult platypus has no teeth at all. Then there is some other "ancestor" of the platypus, "Tienolophos", which the article nonchalantly mentions,"lacked a beak". Hey, no problem at all - just wave Darwinism's magic wand of deep time and smoke a bagful of baseless assumption and Voila! ... a mouthful of teeth vanish and a beak appears!

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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Dredge
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Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 83 of 171 (823092)
11-06-2017 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by JonF
10-27-2017 9:09 AM


Well of course Mr. Linnaeus didn't call it a "nested hierarchy" - because that's not what he observed. Nested hierarchies are a figtree of Darwinist imagination - you know, like Charlie's mythical "Tree of Life".
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Dredge
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Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 84 of 171 (823093)
11-06-2017 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Taq
10-27-2017 11:49 AM


In others words, any creature can be fitted into a nested hierarchy - all you need is a vivid imagination and an appetite for fake science.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Taq, posted 10-27-2017 11:49 AM Taq has responded

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Dredge
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Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 85 of 171 (823094)
11-06-2017 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Coragyps
10-27-2017 12:22 PM


Thank you for that information. There are mescaline-producing plants in Peru. Anyways, Darwin was so out-of-it when he consumed too much hallucinogen, he couldn't remember which country he was in.
This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
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Posts: 19295
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 86 of 171 (823105)
11-06-2017 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Dredge
11-06-2017 1:12 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
... "The fossilised Steropodon ... is composed of a an opalised lower jawbone with three molar teeth". Yep, one can tell a whole lot from just a jawbone with three teeth! ...

Indeed. Teeth are very valuable evidence, and marsupial teeth are different from placental mammal teeth, so that helps identify them.

... Furthermore, this "ancestor" of the platypus had teeth, whereas the adult platypus has no teeth at all. ...

quote:
wiki: Platypus: Modern platypus young have three teeth in each of the maxillae (one premolar and two molars) and dentaries (three molars), which they lose before or just after leaving the breeding burrow; ...

Curiously that is sufficient evidence for showing evolution from a toothed ancestor.

... Then there is some other "ancestor" of the platypus, "Tienolophos", which the article nonchalantly mentions,"lacked a beak". ...

quote:
wiki: Tienolophos: Teinolophos trusleri was a prehistoric species of monotreme, or egg-laying mammal. It is known from a lower jawbone found in Flat Rocks, Victoria, Australia. It lived during the Aptian age of the Lower Cretaceous.

The holotype is a partial left dentary known as NMV P208231. An age of approximately 123 million years makes this the earliest known monotreme. The lower molar is broadly similar in morphology to the m2 of Steropodon. The trigonid is compressed and the talonid has no basin. The dentary is about one sixth the size of Steropodon's, and wear facets indicate an "orthal" occlusion with the upper molars.

The construction of the lower jaw differs from existing monotremes. Among the contrasts are the condyle, which is well above the tooth row (instead of at about the same height); and the ascending ramus, which is also higher. Also different is that Teinolophos probably had a strong bite. A unique feature for known toothed monotremes is that the trigonid is tall, while the talonid is set much lower. This is more like the general mammalian arrangement. The molar is double-rooted, which is plesiomorphic when compared to ornithorhynchids, but is a shared characteristic with Steropodon and Kollikodon. Subsequent monotreme molars are multi-rooted.


So you see how valuable teeth are in determining evolutionary relationships. Here we see the monotreme lineage diverting from the basal mammalian ancestry.

... ... a mouthful of teeth vanish and a beak appears!

The fossils show exactly the intermediate stages we would expect from evolution and stages that are illogical for any "special creation" concepts.

Thanks for another opportunity to discuss evolution and educate other readers via the conduit of your ignorance.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


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This message is a reply to:
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ringo
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Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 87 of 171 (823123)
11-06-2017 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Dredge
11-06-2017 1:25 AM


Dredge writes:

Anyways, Darwin was so out-of-it when he consumed too much hallucinogen, he couldn't remember which country he was in.


It makes no difference what Darwin did or said. The Theory of Evolution does not depend on Darwin. It has been confirmed countless times by countless people. Only ignorant creationists feel a need to personify it in the form of Darwin.
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Taq
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Posts: 7271
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 88 of 171 (823150)
11-06-2017 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Dredge
11-06-2017 1:15 AM


Dredge writes:

Well of course Mr. Linnaeus didn't call it a "nested hierarchy" - because that's not what he observed.

What Linnaeus described was a nested hierarchy, groups within groups. Same thing.

Nested hierarchies are a figtree of Darwinist imagination - you know, like Charlie's mythical "Tree of Life".

How is the observed phylogeny a myth?


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Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 7271
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 89 of 171 (823152)
11-06-2017 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Dredge
11-06-2017 1:18 AM


Dredge writes:

In others words, any creature can be fitted into a nested hierarchy - all you need is a vivid imagination and an appetite for fake science.

A species with mammary glands, flow through lungs, feathers, and three middle ear bones could not be fit into the nested hierarchy. I can give you millions of examples of species that would not fit the observed nested hierarchy.

Until you explain why you think the platypus should not fit into the existing nested hierarchy then I really can't help you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Dredge, posted 11-06-2017 1:18 AM Dredge has not yet responded

  
Dredge
Member
Posts: 676
From: Australia
Joined: 09-06-2016
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 90 of 171 (823646)
11-15-2017 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by RAZD
11-06-2017 7:21 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
RAZD writes:

Teeth are very valuable evidence


You make a valid point - I'd forgotten about how Nebraska Man was invented on the basis of one pig's tooth. That episode demonstrated that the standards of evolution science are of the highest quality.

quote:
wiki: Tienolophos: Teinolophos trusleri was a prehistoric species of monotreme, or egg-laying mammal. It is known from a lower jawbone found in Flat Rocks, Victoria, Australia. It lived during the Aptian age of the Lower Cretaceous.
The holotype is a partial left dentary known as NMV P208231. An age of approximately 123 million years makes this the earliest known monotreme. The lower molar is broadly similar in morphology to the m2 of Steropodon. The trigonid is compressed and the talonid has no basin. The dentary is about one sixth the size of Steropodon's, and wear facets indicate an "orthal" occlusion with the upper molars.

The construction of the lower jaw differs from existing monotremes. Among the contrasts are the condyle, which is well above the tooth row (instead of at about the same height); and the ascending ramus, which is also higher. Also different is that Teinolophos probably had a strong bite. A unique feature for known toothed monotremes is that the trigonid is tall, while the talonid is set much lower. This is more like the general mammalian arrangement. The molar is double-rooted, which is plesiomorphic when compared to ornithorhynchids, but is a shared characteristic with Steropodon and Kollikodon. Subsequent monotreme molars are multi-rooted.

I knew that ... learnt it all in primary school.

The fossils show exactly the intermediate stages we would expect from evolution and stages that are illogical for any "special creation" concepts.

I take your point. If you took the skeletons of all creatures in the world today, you could line them up to form lots of imaginary "evolutionary sequences". All you need to "join the dots" is a bit of imagination. You can play the same meaningless game with fossils.

Edited by Dredge, : No reason given.


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