Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 597 of 1498 (823050)
11-05-2017 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 593 by starman
11-05-2017 1:54 PM


Re: Correlations Correlations Correlations
We know lots of details from the last few hundred years. You have no details for the far past though.
So you have no evidence, not even a shred to support your wild fantasy imaginings.
Fail. Not debating in good faith. Typical.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 593 by starman, posted 11-05-2017 1:54 PM starman has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 598 of 1498 (823051)
11-05-2017 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 594 by starman
11-05-2017 1:58 PM


Re: Correlations Correlations Correlations
I asked you:
"Can you explain that consistency -- why they all come to the same results with high degrees of consilience?"
Name a specific example of something that is consistent? ...
Your answer does not address that question, so I'll take that as no, that you cannot explain the consistency of results from multiple sources.
FAIL #2
... Tree rings you can't even show us from 5000 years ago apparently! Ha. If you did, then what, you expect some weird bug anomaly there? ...
Sadly, for you, the Bristlecone pine chronologies extend back to over 8,000 years ago with no remarkable change in growth patterns, and dead wood lying on the ground has been there without being floated off by some imaginary magic flood.
As noted above you can count the rings on the Prometheus stump, but that is not all: there is another Bristlecone pine that is over 5,070 years old (same reference as above)
quote:
... After the death of Prometheus, the oldest known living tree was a 4,847 year old bristlecone pine found in the White Mountains of California. It wasn’t until 2012 when another bristlecone from the same area proved to be 5,065 years old. There is a good chance there are older bristlecone pines that have not yet been dated. ...
That was 5 years ago ...
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 594 by starman, posted 11-05-2017 1:58 PM starman has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 603 of 1498 (823065)
11-05-2017 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 601 by JonF
11-05-2017 3:05 PM


Re: Correlations Correlations Correlations
Radioactive decay rates under terrestrial conditions are and have been constant.
Also see Are Uranium Halos the best evidence of (a) an old earth AND (b) constant physics?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 601 by JonF, posted 11-05-2017 3:05 PM JonF has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 608 of 1498 (823107)
11-06-2017 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 604 by starman
11-06-2017 1:48 AM


Re: Correlations Correlations Correlations
We need a reason to think the forces and laws that govern the atoms that make up cells and determine how things exist on earth was the same, ...
Curiously that is what uranium halos show -- that "the forces and laws that govern the atoms" were consistent during the time the halos formed, which was over hundreds of millions of years, as the halos are composed of small individual points made by alpha particle decay, traveling the distance proportional to their decay energy.
And it is what the Oklo natural reactors show -- the same parent daughter decays we see in modern man made reactors, no more, and no less.
... if we intend to build all models on the assumption it was.
It's not an assumption, it is a tested hypothesis. If you actually spend the time to read this thread instead of just spamming it, you would be able to see that.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 604 by starman, posted 11-06-2017 1:48 AM starman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 618 by starman, posted 11-06-2017 1:09 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 610 of 1498 (823111)
11-06-2017 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 605 by starman
11-06-2017 1:50 AM


Starman fails again to address the issues or provide evidence.
If you were not the poster with a friend or relative in the field, fine. You can produce a good picture of the innermost tree rings of the oldest bristlecone pine for us then.
Go to the mountain. You can see the actual stump and count the rings.
Interestingly, the innermost rings are not needed for the dendrochronology because of the overlaps with other specimens. They would only be of interest to people who don't understand how dendrochronology works, something that is explained in the posts about the Bristlecone pines.
Again, it appears that you are not reading the posts, just posting random comment you think bring up issues that affect the accuracy of the chronology.
They don't. That makes Fail #8 now.
And I note that you have still failed to present any evidence to substantiate your fantasy time issues.
That makes Fail #9
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 605 by starman, posted 11-06-2017 1:50 AM starman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 611 by jar, posted 11-06-2017 9:09 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 614 by starman, posted 11-06-2017 12:59 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 622 of 1498 (823146)
11-06-2017 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 614 by starman
11-06-2017 12:59 PM


Re: Starman fails again to address the issues or provide evidence.
What about this picture do you feel is some nonconformity near the center of the rings? In what way do you suggest it shows all rings had to have grown in this nature??
You can count the rings that exist and that gives you a minimum age for the tree.
You can also overlap the rings with the techniques of dendrochronology to extend the age of the grove back over 8,000 years ago.
This includes standing dead trees that had lived over 7000 years, but we don't know their last year of life.
We would need a living tree that was over 5000 years to see if there was something like you suggest, not merely other dead trees around affected by some conditions long ago that caused similar rings by the way. In either case the question becomes, why would the rings we see have to have been grown in the nature we know today?
As you have already been told there is a living tree that was measured at 5,065 years old in 2012.
But again, we do not need that for the chronology that is made by overlapping different samples by their climate patterns, a process that was duplicated with an entirely different set of tree samples on a nearby mountain.
There was an exact match of the climate patterns between the two chronologies for the 5,000 + period of overlap except for two instances when it was so cold year-round that the second chronology showed no ring and the original chronology showed very narrow rings.
That is better than 99.96% accuracy. Better than any dates I have seen from creationists ...
... not merely other dead trees around affected by some conditions long ago that caused similar rings by the way. ...
Says the person with no clue how dendrochronology works and no explanation for the accuracy of the overlaps caused by climate variations. All we need to do is observe that there is no discernible alteration in the way the trees grew.
If you disagree with this evidence then it is incumbent on you to provide an alternate explanation for why the 4 different chronologies produce results within 2% error after 8,000 years.
What causes the appearance of old age if that is wrong -- how do you explain it.
... In either case the question becomes, why would the rings we see have to have been grown in the nature we know today?
Because (A) that is what the evidence shows and (B) there is no evidence that it wasn't the same around the world and throughout the solar system or even the universe.
The onus is on you to show cause and to provide supporting evidence. In this you have failed miserably.
Fail #12
Get to it.
Read the thread. It's already done. In spades. It is your task to provide alternatives with supporting evidence and to explain the correlations. Start at Message 1 and stop wasting time.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 614 by starman, posted 11-06-2017 12:59 PM starman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 626 by starman, posted 11-07-2017 4:19 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 623 of 1498 (823147)
11-06-2017 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 618 by starman
11-06-2017 1:09 PM


Oklo and Uranium Halos show an Old Earth
Firstly, Oklo shows nothing but an active imagination and propensity to make stuff up. They invented whatever was needed to fit the events and sites into their faity tale scenarios and assumed laws of the past. The magic dunking of the sites miles under the earth and resurfacing as needed are examples of bs run amok.
Getting desperate there with the denial bit. It seems you didn't understand what happened there and the details of the evidence.
Sadly, for you, ignorance and denial are not refutations of the evidence, they just show you have no counter argument to present.
As for the halo business cute little claims you make there. Too bad you have no juice to back em up eh? You rattle off imaginary years based solely on your little imaginary same state past as if they had the least merit in reality. Then you claim the halos show us there was no change without so much as stopping to mention why! What a joke.
And once again, this information is on the Are Uranium Halos the best evidence of (a) an old earth AND (b) constant physics? thread, available for anyone who is actually interested in what the evidence shows to read at their leisure, perhaps starting with Not about Polonium, Not about a Young Earth and continuing through the thread.
Who knows, you might even learn something. Feel free to comment on that thread, where I am sure you will fail to deal with the objective empirical evidence presented there.
And if you don't, then the joke is still on you, because you will have failed again.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 618 by starman, posted 11-06-2017 1:09 PM starman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 627 by starman, posted 11-07-2017 4:20 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 628 of 1498 (823203)
11-07-2017 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 625 by starman
11-07-2017 4:10 PM


Re: Starman fails again to address the issues or provide evidence.
Time wasting empty blather...devoid of content.
Devolution near complete as starman has to deny more and more of reality to sustain his fantasies.
Still no evidence for is vapid assertions.
Fail #15
LOL

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 625 by starman, posted 11-07-2017 4:10 PM starman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 630 by starman, posted 11-07-2017 4:37 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 632 of 1498 (823216)
11-07-2017 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 626 by starman
11-07-2017 4:19 PM


Re: Starman fails again to address the issues or provide evidence.
quote:
You can count the rings that exist and that gives you a minimum age for the tree.
Not true unless the rings all grew IN this nature! Gong.
quote:
You can also overlap the rings with the techniques of dendrochronology to extend the age of the grove back over 8,000 years ago.
Not unless all rings grew in this present state! Gong!
quote:
(fixed coding) As you have already been told there is a living tree that was measured at 5,065 years old in 2012.
False. Rings only equal years or seasons as long as the tree was growing in the present nature! You are spinning your wheels here, missing the whole point.
Which just means that all the dendrochronological evidence exists "IN this nature!" and that any different nature state in this time is a fantasy.
FAIL #16
quote:
There was an exact match of the climate patterns between the two chronologies for the 5,000 + period of overlap except for two instances when it was so cold year-round that the second chronology showed no ring and the original chronology showed very narrow rings.
Doesn't matter if the variations were within the day or week as they would have to be in the former nature.
Except that those rings are exactly similar to annual rings and entirely different from intermittent type rings.
But your problem is not just with inventing an imaginary system of magic ring growth that looks identical to annual growth rings ... but the changing levels of 14C within those rings somehow matches the levels of 14C in lake varves (Suigetsu) and marine varves (Cariaco) with layers of diatoms (Suigetsu) or foraminifera (Cariaco) alternating with layers of clay and fine silts -- material that does not settle fast.
Why do those 14C levels match for the same annual counted rings or layers?
In a way that exactly mimics what we expect to find if the "IN this nature!" were the case.
Dropping exponentially as the older layers/rings are tested.
quote:
What causes the appearance of old age if that is wrong -- how do you explain it.
Maybe write this down, you keep missing it...BECAUSE the rings were not all grown in this present state! ...
Congratulation, you've contradicted yourself and your "present state" now extends 36,000 years into the past.
With no discernible evidence of any previous type if nature, and now confirming the exponential decay of 14C and the validity of 14C dating.
... The onus is on you to show cause and to provide supporting evidence for your claimed same nature existing in the far past on earth. In this you have failed miserably.
Except ... once again, it's already done: that evidence is in this thread, and all you have to do is read it.
Fail @17
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 626 by starman, posted 11-07-2017 4:19 PM starman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 639 by starman, posted 11-09-2017 12:30 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 633 of 1498 (823218)
11-07-2017 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 627 by starman
11-07-2017 4:20 PM


Re: Oklo and Uranium Halos show an Old Earth
I read the Oklo fable many times and you can't support it. Give it up!
Fail #18 bald assertions like this are not an argument, all you have is your silly opinion.
As for your halo thing..I don't believe you. You would have posted the great proof or point in a sentence or two here by now. You got nothing.
Again there is a whole thread (Are Uranium Halos the best evidence of (a) an old earth AND (b) constant physics?) dedicated to this and you are too scared to look at it.
There are 44 posts I have made on that thread, and only a person with no idea of the issue would think it could be condensed to "a sentence or two" ... Fail #19.
So far all you have posted are vapid opinions devoid of evidence and that don't even rise to the level of a scientific hypothesis. At best it is poor science fiction written by someone ignorant of science.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by starman, posted 11-07-2017 4:20 PM starman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 640 by starman, posted 11-09-2017 12:32 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 634 of 1498 (823219)
11-07-2017 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 630 by starman
11-07-2017 4:37 PM


Re: Starman fails again to address the issues or provide evidence.
My assertion is that science does not know the state of the past on earth. You help prove that assertion is absolutely true. Thanks for that.
Still no evidence to substantiate that fantasy.
A moth fluttering around the flame of knowledge, trying desperately to put it out with your wing flappings.
Fail #20.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : ..lol

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 630 by starman, posted 11-07-2017 4:37 PM starman has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 637 of 1498 (823283)
11-08-2017 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 627 by starman
11-07-2017 4:20 PM


Starman fails again
As for your halo thing..I don't believe you. You would have posted the great proof or point in a sentence or two here by now. You got nothing.
Curiously I wrote a special post to summarize this just for you.
It's a little more than a couple of sentences.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 627 by starman, posted 11-07-2017 4:20 PM starman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 642 by starman, posted 11-09-2017 12:34 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 653 of 1498 (823366)
11-09-2017 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 639 by starman
11-09-2017 12:30 PM


Re: Starman fails again to address the issues or provide evidence.
Rings that grew in hours look similar to ones that grow in this state in say a year. ...
No they don't. Such rings have different characteristics that a child can see.
But hey ... this is a GREAT OPPORTUNITY for you to provide evidence to support this claim.
If you got any ...
... which you don't ... fail #34?
Not sure what you thought you should see? Spell it out? As for your imaginary 36,000 years, show us the basis for that date? Radioactive decay? Overlapping rings from the former nature..?? Be clear.
Read the thread.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 639 by starman, posted 11-09-2017 12:30 PM starman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 659 by starman, posted 11-09-2017 4:10 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 654 of 1498 (823367)
11-09-2017 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 640 by starman
11-09-2017 12:32 PM


Re: Oklo and Uranium Halos show an Old Earth
No actual point on halos you can concisely post here eh? Let's face it, that is just another facet of your same nature in the past belief set. Different head...same monster. I have a one sword slays all, thankfully.
Message 642: Maybe some poster will cite it so we can look at it one day. We wait.
summary written just for you, your wait is over. Next we see if you have the honesty to read it.
I predict that you will ignore it.
Fail #35
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 640 by starman, posted 11-09-2017 12:32 PM starman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 660 by starman, posted 11-09-2017 4:12 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 663 of 1498 (823424)
11-10-2017 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 659 by starman
11-09-2017 4:10 PM


Re: Starman fails again to address the issues or provide evidence. Fail #36
Absurdly false. You have NO idea what a ring grown in the former nature would/should look like. ...
Another silly absurd assertion. You have NO evidence that there was a former nature -- it's fantasy.
What you have claimed -- with NO evidence to support it -- is that rings grown in a couple days would look like annual rings. They don't:
Tree growth slows down but doesn't stop over several days period, tree growth does stop at annual points due to climate ecology.
The difference between the double ring shown and the annual ring shown demonstrates this. All you would get would be a series of double rings without the precise character of an annual ring.
And you would need a transition which would show up. It doesn't.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : st

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by starman, posted 11-09-2017 4:10 PM starman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 667 by starman, posted 11-10-2017 12:00 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 681 by creation, posted 01-14-2018 11:31 PM RAZD has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024