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Author | Topic: Newsweek: Hillary Clinton Robbed Bernie Sanders Of The Democratic Nomination, Accordi | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1430 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
One big one is that Sanders signed the exact same agreement that Clinton did with regard to financing the DNC. Please see
Four Viral Claims Spread by Journalists on Twitter in the Last Week Alone That Are False quote: Perhaps that is why you didn't find any substantiation for that claim ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2417 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Sanders won 22 states and the 3 I just mentioned were diverse. There are 4 majority minority states and Sanders won 1 (Hawaii), lost another by a few points (New Mexico), lost California by 7% (53-46), and was killed in Texas. He also lost Puerto Rico by about 59% to 38%, which was also a wide loss margin. He won Michigan and Indiana as well as Rhode Island. There were close losses Nevada was a loss of 52.6% to 47.3% Massachusetts 50.1% to 48.7% Missouri 49.6% to 49.4% Kentucky 46.8% to 48.3% Connecticut 51.7% to 46.5% Iowa 49.8% to 49.6% Illinois 50.5% to 48.7% New Mexico 51.5% to 48.5% South Dakota 51.0% to 49.0% Semi-close losses California 53.1% to 46.0% 2016 Democratic Party presidential primaries - Wikipedia So he won 22 states but narrowly lost 9 (and semi narrowly lost California). Don't forget that he was being dogged with dropping out in a lot of these contests (especially California) since he was said to be a totally dead dog. (due to super delegates). Wikipedia says that Sanders got 46% of delegates that voters choose (I thought it was 45%). See link. A 54% to 46% loss when there were lots of obstacles (such as saying that he was defeated from the start, we never heard that he only need to win margins by 9% to get delegates to catch up with Hillary. It was always at least "60%" of "remaining delegates" that he needed according to the party talking heads and media commentary. That doesn't even get to the party not allowing open primaries, debate schedule, behind the scenes undermining of his candidacy, etc.
quote: People weren't assuming quite that much. BUT BUT BUT People were looking at what endless state and national polls showed in head to head hypothetical general election match ups..
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Sanders won 22 states and the 3 I just mentioned were diverse. I said diverse with a large urban population. That is where Sanders got his butt kicked. Hawaii and Alaska don't qualify. Nor do several of the other states you named. Michigan would qualify, but it is pretty much an exception for Sanders. Clinton got millions of votes more than Sanders. The only way Sanders wins is if he gets those super delegates. But if you are making that argument, then you shouldn't be saying that counting the super-delegates is cheating. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World. Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined:
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LamarkNewAge responds to me:
quote: Yes, look at it. Exactly how did the DNC "rig" 57 elections in 50+ states and territories? Because as I've demonstrated before, it didn't matter if the election was open or closed, caucus or primary, Clinton beat Sanders. What "plausible deniability"? Even Brazile has come out to say that Warren's claim that the election was "rigged" is going too far (Donna Brazile: I found no evidence Democratic primary was rigged | CNN Politics). As Joy Reid mentions (https://twitter.com/JoyAnnReid/status/926329971588714496), Sanders raised more money than Clinton did (but not for the DNC). Despite the fact that the "establishment" Democrats favored Clinton over Obama, he still beat her, so what happened with Sanders? Oh, that's right...Clinton won the base of the Democratic Party. But even then, making the superdelegates proportional or even doing away with them altogether wouldn't have changed the outcome. And all that money that people are complaining so loudly about? It was for the *general* election. So if Sanders had won, he would have had Clinton to thank for the funding the DNC had to help him in the general election. Indeed, the truth is out there: But too many people who are incapable of accepting that their actions have consequences are trying to find any other scapegoat to blame. Once again, I have the same question that still hasn't been answered: Would we be having this conversation if Clinton had won? If just a few thousand people in quite literally three cities had voted for Clinton, would we be having this conversation? And if not, how can you claim this argument holds any water? We lost because we didn't vote to win.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
RAZD responds to me:
quote:quote:Really? The one that gave the Clinton campaign the right to vet all communications, fund raising and disbursements, etc? Logical error: Facts not in evidence. The Clinton campaign didn't "vet all communications." That's a Republican talking point and you should know better. But yes, Sanders signed the same FRA (fund raising agreement) as Clinton did. Sanders never did anything with it, but Clinton did, thus the other memo regarding the specifics of what that relationship meant. And on top of that, the extended agreement Clinton made specifically states: "...nothing in this agreement shall be construed to violate the DNC's obligation of impartiality and neutrality through the Nominating process" and that "all activities performed under this agreement will be focused exclusively on preparations for the General Election and not the Democratic Primary." And once again, this agreement was for the *general* election. Nobody has yet to explain how this agreement caused four million more people to vote for Clinton in the primaries. And once again, nobody seems to remember that the DNC was broke. Obama left it in a shambles. Regardless of whoever won the primary, it was not in a position to be very effective during the general election. Thus, the DNC was looking for ways to get money together to function and one of those ways was to get assistance from the candidates. Thus, the FRAs given to both Clinton *AND* Sanders. That Sanders blew the DNC off is his own decision. But let's suppose that he had had this alternative universe: No FRA. The DNC is still broke. And somehow, this lack of FRA results in four million people voting for him instead of Clinton (how? Exactly how does funding the DNC make you vote for her?) So now what happens in the general when Sanders needs the DNC's help and they don't have any to give? We're still stuck with Trump becoming president and we have a head of the party who doesn't work with the support structure that exists for him...assuming that he would still be pretending to be a Democrat. And then where would we be looking ahead? Sanders bought his own hype.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
RAZD responds to me:
quote: Except I did. See above. They both signed the same agreement (save for Treasurer) and then Clinton engaged with the DNC to come up with more specifics whereas Sanders let it die. And now he's whining about it. That's the epitome of "sour grapes." For crying out loud, he's been at this political game longer than she has. His inability to run a campaign is not her fault. You've got the Republican talking points down, RAZD.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1430 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Gosh I didn't know Donna Brazil was a republican and not just a DINO ...
ps check snopes. And then check republican mouthpiece CNBC broadcasting
Here's the real bombshell revealed in Donna Brazile's book about the Dems quote: Seems this story has legs. Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : . Edited by RAZD, : .by our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2417 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
First your quote.
quote: Let me use California to make my point. First of all, yes Clinton did get 55% of the total primary vote. While Sanders got just 43%. My point is that Sanders wouldn't have lost as many states as he did if he wasn't described as being "defeated" from the start. He actually only lost 53.1% to 46.0% in California, but that was after Hillary supposedly had (almost) enough total delegates (pledged plus unpledged delegates going into the final June 6 Primary day of 6 states)so that Sanders should "drop out for the good of the party". She would have lost New Mexico and South Dakota had Sanders not been attacked endlessly by the party apparatus for having the gall to stay in the race. The ironic thing is that she had only won 24 states (Sanders 20) going into the last primary day (June 6). Sanders got between 45.5% and 46.0% of delegates voters choose. Hillary got between 54.0% and 54.5%. This sort of crap happened the entire time. But after Iowa, New Hampshire, and Nevada, Sanders was said to need 60% of the remaining delegates even though he had more votes total than Hillary. He had his best overall performances in the early states (exit polls showed that he was winning the under age 30 black voters, and he also won the Hispanic & Asian vote in Nevada), yet he was described as having "insurmountable mathematical obstacles" when it came to winning enough delegates. The super-delegates distorted and ruined this entire race. I remember the narrative very well. The fact is that Sanders got 46% of the voter-selected delegates (he won a lot of delegate rich caucuses, just like Obama did), and had there been no super-delegate issue, then he would have won more states than he did. Everybody was saying he couldn't win, because it was constantly said that he needed like 70% of remaining delegates. Enough people were tricked into thinking voting for Hillary was the responsible thing to do since "she already won, and we don't want to weaken her in the November general election by giving Sanders our vote". That is so obvious that it is amazing I have to argue it. (If we could see all the Sunday shows during the 2016 primary, then it would be 100% obvious)
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2417 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Kentucky would have been a Sanders win had the primaries not been closed. Amazing that Hillary clobbered Sanders in 11 out of 12 southern states (winning all), but in the general election, she then lost every single one of those states she won in the primary (except Virginia). The super-delegates were all the discussion about "responsible people who will help Democrats select a winning candidate", when the real discussion should have been centered around the need to open the primaries so the Democratic primary didn't get so distorted with crazy partisan voters that were clueless. Hillary won South Dakota because the party elites brainwashed the voters into thinking that she had already won. She lost South Dakota too. And the debate schedule clearly helped Clinton. The party attempted to give Sanders as little attention as possible. Relatively few debates to start with, but they were held on nights when the fewest possible viewers would view them. The DNC had plenty of media consultants and they knew when people would be watching debates, and when they wouldn't be. Sanders won Michigan because of his great debate performance (George Stephanapolis helped when he showed a 1994 Sanders quote where he stated his strong concern for the hurt minority communities would suffer from the Clinton crime bill), and it was in a state where every poll had him loosing by double digits.
quote: The first debate wasn't until October 13 2015. The former MD Governor was a Hillary supported as of February 1, 2016, but he essentially said the debate schedule smelled like a dead rat.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2417 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Iowa
Ohio Missouri Arizona Pennsylvania South Dakota Plus 11 of the 12 southern states. Polls were showing Sanders doing better in all of these places. He raised the issue of Pennsylvania and Ohio showing Trump wins. But the super-delegates didn't budge despite the DNC saying they were there to ensure an electable Democrat won. Can you spell CORRUPTION? Can you spell RIG? Can you say RIGGING A RPIMARY?
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2417 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Wasserman Schultz had to resign the DNC chair in 2016 after the emails showed scheming in online party operative's conversations.
Donna Brazile was fired from CNN for leaking debate questions (and the specific citizen profile that would be asking the question) in 2016.
quote: People will always argue over what might have happened. A DNC that wasn't corrupt wasn't on the menu in this universe. A fair DNC would have been discussing many other things other than what they were and it wouldn't have been so manipulative in every single policy and discussion. An open primary in Kentucky would have been a great discussion to have if there really was an interest in getting a primary winner that was more reflective of the general election electorate. Sanders lost 48.8% to 48.3%. That win would have given him 23 states. We didn't get an honest narrative from the political operatives, and their powerful influence was to limit Sander's exposure to the potential-voting populace (via limited debates and holding them on nights where people wouldn't be tuning in as much as other nights would). Sanders lost a lot of close ones, including late-voting states like South Dakota and New Mexico. The super-delegates should have been called on (by an honest and fair DNC in an alternate universe) to support Sanders since he was doing much better in the polls than Hillary Clinton. Sanders won Nebraska (when the delegates were up for grabs) by about 15% but lost the "beauty contest" vote months later (it was just before the June 6 final primary that included the close losses in California, South Dakota, and New Mexico). By then he was said to be a looser, so that is an example of manipulation of voters. I was in Nebraska when Sanders lost (though I wasn't anywhere near the state when he won), and I was there during the Iowa vote. He was way more popular than she was. Sanders would have won more than 22 states in a fair contest. (I think the likelihood is very high that he would have won 25+ in a fair election) He was always mathematically able to win enough regular delegates, even going into the final June 6 (6 state) vote. Despite all the corruption and manipulation every step of the way. The fact that Brazile has shown that the DNC was pro Hillary (multiple times - don't forget the time she was fired from CNN over the debate questions being smuggled to Hillary) is solid evidence of a conspiracy. The cumulative evidence has settled the issue. We can debate the hypotheticals but the superdelegates were part of the manipulation and deck stacking.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2417 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
I told Rrhain to "Look at the 2016 timeline"
He responded
quote: The superdelegates are a major issue (among many others), but it does get to hypotheticals (though there is one issue that wasn't so hypothetical) Look at the math.
quote: Of the 4,051 that voters choose, 2026 were needed for the majority. Clinton 2205Sander 1846 Here we see that the end margin of 359 was less than the 465 to 25 superdelegate lead that Hillary started out with (way before the voting started in Iowa!). The superdelegates included party officials. Speaking of these officials. Look at what happened to the 2 DNC party chairs in 2016.
quote: This latest bombshell (by the same DNC leader that smuggled debate questions to help Hillary) comes AFTER this 2016 corruption parade of DNC chairs getting exposed for rigging the game. There will be lots of hypotheticals when one looks at what might have happened had this unreal corruption not be part of the reality we can't erase. Here is the part that is not hypothetical. The super delegates were supposed to be in the process to decide on a candidate that would be a likely general election winner. They actually decided EARLY and in overwhelming numbers for Hillary Clinton while never budging (which was amazing since Sanders got stronger and stronger - RELATIVE to Hillary Clinton's polling & in ABSOLUTE raw numbers - in over 1000 general election state and nation polls that featured a hypothetical head to head matchup with various Republican candidates). The manipulation was on from the start and it clearly influenced voters choices in the primaries. They should have been neutral from the start. They were not (which isn't too shocking considering all the corruption from the top). They held firm with a huge slant toward Hillary Clinton all the way to the end. They should have switched from supporting Hillary to being "undecided" as we approached the June 6 finale. They did not.
quote: By then, the evidence was that Sanders was the most electable, so perhaps the same super delegates that gave Hillary a 440 delegate vote lead from the start (using the electability argument) should have given Sanders a 440 vote net superdelegate margin now that the evidence swung solidly in the direction of the Vermont Senator being the most electable? Regardless, the process was corrupt, and the superdelegates didn't do anything they were stated (by the DNC leadership) to have been tasked to do. Another big lie is much clearer now that the cumulative evidence of corruption keeps on piling up. Corruption is there for all who don't have the blind faith to ignore it. There is a mountain of evidence and it was already a very large and solid mound just looking at the 2016 timeline alone. Only extreme faith in the 2016 Democratic party leadership's innocence can move that mountain out of site.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1430 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The first debate wasn't until October 13 2015. And the deadline to register as democrat in NY was before that date. New York had a closed primary that only allowed registered democrats to vote. The state democrat party purged (illegally) thousands of voters, including many in Bernie's old home district. Top Democrat suspended for mysterious voter purge Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined:
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RAZD responds to me:
quote: Since Brazile didn't say the election was rigged and has actively denied any such characterization, you're going to have to do better than that. Hint: Just because there are some foolish Democrats out there (*ahem,* Ms. Warren), that doesn't mean the big drive is coming from the Republicans. PS: Check Brazile's actual statements. You seem to be shocked that Clinton, a politician, engaged in politics. What is more shocking is that Sanders, a man who has been in politics for thirty years, didn't seem to understand that when he joined the Democrats, he needed to engage with them and their institutions. You know...engage in politics. Since part of Clinton's campaign was to assist in down-ballot elections, exactly what is the "rigging" involved in letting her know about "communications sent out about other primary candidates"? Isn't that precisely what you *want* to happen as a national committee seeking to get Democrats elected? Don't you *want* your top-of-the-ticket candidates to be talking up the rest of the field? It would seem the problem isn't that the DNC gave such information to Clinton but rather that they somehow had to be talked into it by Clinton in the first place and that they didn't immediately try to get Sanders in on it, too. But then again, Sanders wasn't interested in playing ball with the Democrats. He didn't do much down-ballot campaigning. He wasn't invested in getting Democrats elected. He seemed to not understand that if he was going to be a member of the Democratic Party, that meant it was going to be about more than just him. To whine about it now is pathetic.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
LamarkNewAge:
quote: And Trump would have won the popular vote if not for all of those "illegal" voters, right? Question: Who decides how a state's determination of candidate is carried out? Hint: It isn't the DNC.Hint: It wasn't Clinton, either. quote: And as mentioned previously (please try to keep up), if you make the super-delegates proportional or even remove them from the equation completely, Clinton still beat Sanders.
quote: BWAHAHAHAHAHA! OK....and you just showed there's no point in continuing. (*snigger*) "Brainwashed" That's so precious. Well, just one thing: You don't get to have it both ways. You can't say that "Sanders won Michigan because of his great debate performance" right after insisting that "the debate schedule clearly helped Clinton." See, this is why there's no point in continuing: You're stuck in the throes of a conspiracy theory.Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time. Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.
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