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Author
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Topic: The Tension of Faith
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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2158 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: 05-10-2007
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Message 586 of 1540 (823529)
11-11-2017 10:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 574 by Percy
11-10-2017 6:20 PM
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Re: ting Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
Percy writes:
I remain puzzled that GDR is arguing the point. I at first thought he was supporting Faith's position that faith is backed by evidence, but he says no. But he also says that he believes the Bible *does* contain evidence, citing Corinthians 15:3-8. So I'm, as I said, puzzled. Why is he arguing that evidence exists in the Bible if his faith has no need of the backing of evidence? So what's your position about faith and evidence? Does faith require evidence, otherwise there's no reason to believe, as Faith would argue the point? Or is faith something believed without evidence or perhaps without sufficient evidence? I believe that the earth orbits around the sun, not vice-versa. This belief is based on a variety of evidence. Geocentrists also claim evidence for their position, but I believe that the evidence for heliocentrism is much stronger and more compelling. Likewise, evidence can be amassed both for and against the basic tenets of the Christian faith. I believe that the evidence for the Christian faith is strong and compelling. The atheists here believe otherwise.
Percy writes: I'm treating the word "evidence" the same way the dictionary treats it. There isn't an ounce of difference between us. Here's the Corinthians passage GDR gave as providing supporting evidence for the Gospel accounts: quote: 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born,... Where do you see evidence in this passage?
In this passage, vv. 3-5 are part of a very early Christian creed, dating back to just a few years after the crucifixion. Vv. 6-7 are Paul's addition. In the creed, Jesus' burial is presented as evidence that he really had died, and his appearances are presented as evidence that he had risen from the dead. Yes, there is certainly evidence presented in this early creed. (Sorry to be so brief in my reply; I am on vacation with little time and only an iPhone for internet access.) Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 574 by Percy, posted 11-10-2017 6:20 PM | | Percy has replied |
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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2158 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: 05-10-2007
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Message 604 of 1540 (823573)
11-12-2017 11:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 602 by Percy
11-12-2017 7:42 PM
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Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
Percy writes: The Gospels are not historical accounts. If you don't like the term "religious works" could I suggest "sacred writings."
The modern scholarly view is that the gospels are examples of "Graeco-Roman biography", which is a historical, non-fiction genre. The fact that they are "religious works" does not obviate their historicity.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 602 by Percy, posted 11-12-2017 7:42 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 606 by PaulK, posted 11-13-2017 12:45 AM | | kbertsche has not replied | | | Message 607 by Faith, posted 11-13-2017 10:19 AM | | kbertsche has not replied | | | Message 609 by Percy, posted 11-13-2017 11:20 AM | | kbertsche has not replied |
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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2158 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: 05-10-2007
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Message 624 of 1540 (823610)
11-13-2017 10:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 593 by Percy
11-12-2017 1:07 PM
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Re: ting Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
Percy writes: kbertsche writes:
In the creed, Jesus' burial is presented as evidence that he really had died, and his appearances are presented as evidence that he had risen from the dead. Yes, there is certainly evidence presented in this early creed.
Where is there any evidence that Jesus existed, let alone that he was dead and buried and arose and appeared to many? Where you see evidence I see only words. If words are evidence then, "Jesus never existed, the miracles never took place, and Christianity is the invention of Paul," is evidence contradicting your claims.
The evidence presented in the creed is Jesus' burial and appearances, as I said above. When the creed was written, just a few years after the events, Jesus' burial and appearances would have been known and verifiable. But as you say, things are different today. Our main evidence today for Jesus' burial and appearances is in the biblical text. So we need to determine whether or not the text is historically reliable and accurate. However, doubting the existence of Jesus is just as ridiculous as doubting the existence of the holocaust. You'll find a few fringe agenda-driven "historians" who doubt both, but their arguments are flawed. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 593 by Percy, posted 11-12-2017 1:07 PM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 629 by Percy, posted 11-14-2017 10:48 AM | | kbertsche has not replied |
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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2158 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: 05-10-2007
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Message 643 of 1540 (823662)
11-15-2017 8:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 626 by Percy
11-14-2017 10:06 AM
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Re: The Evidence Of 1 Corinthians 15:5-8
Percy writes: It isn't that I'm "ignoring written accounts as evidence." It's that I'm pointing out that they *aren't* evidence. When we write we're recording our thoughts, but those thoughts could be about anything, from real accounts to complete fictions, from fully accurate to full of mistakes. At best writing represents an effort to create an accurate description of evidence from the real world.
We understand the distinction that you are making between written evidence and other kinds of evidence, and it is a useful one. Nonetheless, it is very idiosyncratic (and, I believe, wrong) to say that written accounts are not evidence. Historians routinely use written accounts as evidence in reconstructing the past. This is often their main evidence, in fact.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 626 by Percy, posted 11-14-2017 10:06 AM | | Percy has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 646 by Percy, posted 11-15-2017 10:17 AM | | kbertsche has not replied |
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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2158 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: 05-10-2007
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Re: "Whqtever the Bible includes is the truth. Period." Which "Bible?"
LNA writes:
Amazingly, Faith takes a European work (that existed not at all in the 1st century) and worships it. "Gospel According to John" wasn't named until the post 170 A.D. time ( Muratorian Fragment and Irenaeus) It wasn't quoted until circa 150 A.D. by the European Justin Martyr.
You are ignoring the John Rylands papyrus fragment (p52), a fragment from John’s gospel which dates from the first half of the second century.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2158 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: 05-10-2007
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Message 1042 of 1540 (824693)
12-02-2017 1:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 1036 by Tangle
12-02-2017 8:56 AM
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Re: the nature of evidence
Tangle writes: Miracles can only happen in the natural world, because if they didn't we'd know nothing about them. Something that happens in the natural world can be observed and if it can be observed it can be tested by science.
Miracles, by definition, are one-off events which can’t be repeated on cue. So they are not testable in the normal sense of science. They CAN be observed, but it’s easy to come up with alternate ad-hoc explanations for such one-off events. (I agree that the claim that transsubstantiation is a miracle is nonsense.)
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1036 by Tangle, posted 12-02-2017 8:56 AM | | Tangle has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1043 by jar, posted 12-02-2017 3:19 PM | | kbertsche has not replied | | | Message 1065 by ringo, posted 12-03-2017 1:16 PM | | kbertsche has not replied |
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