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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again Summations Only
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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
ringo
Member
Posts: 13874
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 5131 of 5179 (823578)
11-13-2017 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 5129 by NoNukes
11-10-2017 2:17 PM


Re: Texas This Time
NoNukes writes:

Then consider "common sense measures" to be US "code words" for doing background checks on all gun sales, not giving guns to folks who have mental illnesses that dispose them towards violence or who have already committed acts of domestic abuse.


In Canada we don't consider depriving the mentally ill of their constitutional rights to be "common sense".

And in US code, "common sense measures" seems to mean arming the congregation as they come in the door.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5129 by NoNukes, posted 11-10-2017 2:17 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5133 by NoNukes, posted 11-14-2017 12:11 PM ringo has responded

New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11812
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 5132 of 5179 (823584)
11-13-2017 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 5129 by NoNukes
11-10-2017 2:17 PM


Re: Texas This Time
Then consider "common sense measures" to be US "code words" for doing background checks on all gun sales, not giving guns to folks who have mental illnesses that dispose them towards violence or who have already committed acts of domestic abuse.

With the exception of private gun sales, aren't those laws already on the books?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5129 by NoNukes, posted 11-10-2017 2:17 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5134 by NoNukes, posted 11-14-2017 12:14 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10059
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 5133 of 5179 (823618)
11-14-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 5131 by ringo
11-13-2017 10:39 AM


Re: Texas This Time
In Canada we don't consider depriving the mentally ill of their constitutional rights to be "common sense".

Neither do I. Are you interpreting the US constitution as preventing the state from restricting access to guns by folks who are demonstrated to be violent under a process with the appropriate due process? If not, then what is your point?

Seriously Ringo, in one set of posts about gun control, you complain that folks in the US don't simply ignore their constitution, but in this recent post, you express the idea that Canada is a virtuous example of constitutional purity. One might think that you don't actually have an opinion of your own and simply like to argue.

Of course, I already knew that.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5131 by ringo, posted 11-13-2017 10:39 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5135 by ringo, posted 11-14-2017 12:20 PM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10059
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 5134 of 5179 (823619)
11-14-2017 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 5132 by New Cat's Eye
11-13-2017 11:12 AM


Re: Texas This Time
With the exception of private gun sales, aren't those laws already on the books?

1. That is a pretty huge exception.

2. No, those laws are not all on the books at the federal level.

3. Those are just examples.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5132 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-13-2017 11:12 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5137 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-14-2017 4:09 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13874
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 5135 of 5179 (823620)
11-14-2017 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 5133 by NoNukes
11-14-2017 12:11 PM


Re: Texas This Time
NoNukes writes:

Are you interpreting the US constitution as preventing the state from restricting access to guns by folks who are demonstrated to be violent under a process with the appropriate due process?


I'm pointing out that that's how the US Constitution seems to be interpreted by the NRA and the Supreme Court.

NoNukes writes:

... you express the idea that Canada is a virtuous example of constitutional purity.


On the contrary, I'm only putting Canada one or two steps above the US.

NoNukes writes:

One might think that you don't actually have an opinion of your own and simply like to argue.


Any dope can have an opinion. It takes a little reflection and understanding to juggle two.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5133 by NoNukes, posted 11-14-2017 12:11 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5136 by NoNukes, posted 11-14-2017 12:47 PM ringo has responded

NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10059
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 5136 of 5179 (823621)
11-14-2017 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 5135 by ringo
11-14-2017 12:20 PM


Re: Texas This Time
I'm pointing out that that's how the US Constitution seems to be interpreted by the NRA and the Supreme Court.

1. The NRA is not part of the government.

2. Why don't you cite a relevant Supreme Court decision? I don't believe there are any such decisions, but as long as you are "pointing out" why don't you give me a pointer.

Any dope can have an opinion. It takes a little reflection and understanding to juggle two

Right. I am suggesting that you don't have either an opinion or an understanding. I'd like to see at least one of those in your post.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5135 by ringo, posted 11-14-2017 12:20 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5146 by ringo, posted 11-15-2017 2:17 PM NoNukes has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11812
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 5137 of 5179 (823631)
11-14-2017 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 5134 by NoNukes
11-14-2017 12:14 PM


Re: Texas This Time
With the exception of private gun sales, aren't those laws already on the books?

1. That is a pretty huge exception.

Really? How huge is it?

2. No, those laws are not all on the books at the federal level.

Oh, yeah fuck that.

3. Those are just examples.

Are the "common sense" gun control measures only at the federal level? What are they, explicitly? What would the legislation look like?

What are the top five common sense gun control measures that will have the biggest impact on the goals that are trying to be achieved?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5134 by NoNukes, posted 11-14-2017 12:14 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5157 by Modulous, posted 11-15-2017 4:14 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Percy
Member
Posts: 16158
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 5138 of 5179 (823635)
11-14-2017 6:44 PM


California This Time
Four people were killed and ten injured when a gunman went on a rampage in Northern California. Washington Post: At least 4 dead after gunman randomly picking targets goes on shooting rampage in Northern California

The carnage won't stop until we get rid of the guns. Guns are not a hobby nor a means of defense - they're a menace.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
 Message 5139 by Phat, posted 11-14-2017 7:07 PM Percy has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10041
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 5139 of 5179 (823636)
11-14-2017 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 5138 by Percy
11-14-2017 6:44 PM


Endless Mass Shootings
percy writes:

The carnage won't stop until we get rid of the guns.

Will it ever be possible to get rid of all of them?

It's a bit like the nuclear genie. Getting rid of nuclear weapons will likely never happen. I feel that the chances are even less likely with guns.

Of course, the argument is that if guns are controlled so that they cannot be easily purchased, the number of shootings and victims will inevitably decrease. The ball is in the public court. The debate is likely to drag on for years. The NRA is a powerful lobby that won't roll over quietly.

And what of the black market? The old adage...that when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns...seems apt. The number of random deaths by mass shootigs would inevitably decrease, however. That much is likely.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5138 by Percy, posted 11-14-2017 6:44 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5140 by Percy, posted 11-15-2017 8:31 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 5141 by Diomedes, posted 11-15-2017 9:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 5147 by ringo, posted 11-15-2017 2:25 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Percy
Member
Posts: 16158
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


(2)
Message 5140 of 5179 (823663)
11-15-2017 8:31 AM
Reply to: Message 5139 by Phat
11-14-2017 7:07 PM


Re: Endless Mass Shootings
Phat writes:

Will it ever be possible to get rid of all of them?

No.

And what of the black market? The old adage...that when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns...seems apt.

Most murders are not committed by outlaws. They're committed by normal people who own or happen to have access to guns. An older study found that 80% of murder victims knew their killers and 16% were blood relatives (Murder in Large Urban Counties, 1988).

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5139 by Phat, posted 11-14-2017 7:07 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 668
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 4.3


(2)
Message 5141 of 5179 (823668)
11-15-2017 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 5139 by Phat
11-14-2017 7:07 PM


Re: Endless Mass Shootings
Will it ever be possible to get rid of all of them?
It's a bit like the nuclear genie. Getting rid of nuclear weapons will likely never happen. I feel that the chances are even less likely with guns.

You will never get rid of all guns. Even in countries with stricter gun control laws, guns are still accessible. I grew up in rural Canada and lots of people had guns. Including my neighbor who took me hunting a few times.

Of course, the argument is that if guns are controlled so that they cannot be easily purchased, the number of shootings and victims will inevitably decrease. The ball is in the public court. The debate is likely to drag on for years. The NRA is a powerful lobby that won't roll over quietly.

It's further complicated in the United States in that the 2nd Amendment provides the right to own firearms. So laws are limited with regards to restrictions. With that being said, there are some very simple common sense measures that most Americans support, such as closing the gun show loophole and limiting the types of weapons that are accessible.

And what of the black market? The old adage...that when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns...seems apt. The number of random deaths by mass shootigs would inevitably decrease, however.

There are provisions that could be made regarding black market sales. Most of that would involve stricter penalties for the using a gun in the commission of a crime and also for anyone selling guns illegally. Not sure how strongly those types of measures are enforced, but it could help.

In my opinion, the biggest issue in the USA is the mindset. It's the gun culture. As I mentioned, I grew up in Canada. We have lots of guns in Canada. It's a hunting and fishing culture. Even handguns can be purchased, although it is much more difficult to get one.

But the big difference in my opinion is how people view their guns. In the USA, people seem to have an almost bizarre fixation on their gun. The culture seems to glorify usage of guns and the USA is one of the few countries I have seen that makes criminals into celebrities. Billy the Kid, Bonnie & Clyde, John Dillinger, etc. These individuals were murderers and criminals but they are treated in an almost iconic sense. I never really understood that when I moved here. But my suspicion is that is part of the problem as it pertains to the gun culture.

The other facet is the 'shoot first, ask questions later' mindset. To me, that is the worst possible message to send to anyone. People should consider usage of a gun as an absolute last resort. Not a knee-jerk reaction. De-escalating the situation is a far better option.

And finally, the USA also has this notion that it needs an armed populace in order to prevent a tyrannical government from taking over. This to me is the most nonsensical, anachronistic nonsense I can fathom. The guns available to the general population, even when accounting for assault weapons, are absolutely nothing compared to the firepower available to the US Military. If the government became tyrannical, we would actually look to our military to overthrow the corrupt government. Attempting to challenge the US Military with a civilian militia would be patently laughable. You may pick off a few infantry here and there. But when the tanks roll in and the Apache gunship has you in its sight, adios.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5139 by Phat, posted 11-14-2017 7:07 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 5142 by NoNukes, posted 11-15-2017 11:49 AM Diomedes has not yet responded
 Message 5143 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-15-2017 12:11 PM Diomedes has not yet responded

NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10059
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 5142 of 5179 (823672)
11-15-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 5141 by Diomedes
11-15-2017 9:48 AM


Re: Endless Mass Shootings
And finally, the USA also has this notion that it needs an armed populace in order to prevent a tyrannical government from taking over. This to me is the most nonsensical, anachronistic nonsense I can fathom.

Wanted to comment on this sentence. I think your post was dead on, but this notion is not nationwide. The idea that guns are needed to prevent a government takeover is held by a large number of Americans, but it simply isn't a mainstream idea. We should not push the impression that every single thing the NRA puts out is the majority opinion.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5141 by Diomedes, posted 11-15-2017 9:48 AM Diomedes has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11812
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 5143 of 5179 (823673)
11-15-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 5141 by Diomedes
11-15-2017 9:48 AM


Re: Endless Mass Shootings
It's further complicated in the United States in that the 2nd Amendment provides the right to own firearms.

I gotta pick this nit: the 2nd does NOT provide the right. It prevents the right from being infringed.

there are some very simple common sense measures that most Americans support, such as closing the gun show loophole

How many of these mass murderers got their guns through a gun show "loophole"? How many of the guns used in homicides were got at a gun show?

I don't think its much, and I don't see how that's gonna help much. And if I have to do a background check on my brother before I give him a shotgun for Christmas, then count me out.

In my opinion, the biggest issue in the USA is the mindset. It's the gun culture.

Meh, I'm not so sure. I don't think the "gun culture" is causing these mass murders - there are a lot fucked up men with serious issues that aren't being addressed.

The gun culture, in my opinion, is what is causing the bulk of the (non-suicide) gun deaths - its mostly young men killing acquaintances in the inner cities. Young men are going to fight each other, and it's the glorification of guns that is causing them to shoot each other.

But the big difference in my opinion is how people view their guns. In the USA, people seem to have an almost bizarre fixation on their gun.

I mean, they are entertaining \_(ツ)_/

The other facet is the 'shoot first, ask questions later' mindset.

That sounds like a lack of training.

Everyone who owns a gun should take a concealed carry class.

And finally, the USA also has this notion that it needs an armed populace in order to prevent a tyrannical government from taking over. This to me is the most nonsensical, anachronistic nonsense I can fathom. The guns available to the general population, even when accounting for assault weapons, are absolutely nothing compared to the firepower available to the US Military.

Sure, but I look at it differently. It's not that the civilians would win an all out firefight. It's that the prevalence of guns in the civilians hands prevents the initiation of the firefight. It would be too costly.

Remove the guns, remove the cost, and then it is an option on the table.

But when the tanks roll in and the Apache gunship has you in its sight, adios.

The government has a vested interest in the citizens being alive. They only "win" if we can't defend ourselves.

Edited by New Cat's Eye, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5141 by Diomedes, posted 11-15-2017 9:48 AM Diomedes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5144 by NoNukes, posted 11-15-2017 12:29 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10059
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 5144 of 5179 (823675)
11-15-2017 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 5143 by New Cat's Eye
11-15-2017 12:11 PM


Re: Endless Mass Shootings
I gotta pick this nit: the 2nd does NOT provide the right. It prevents the right from being infringed.

You say this despite having expressed the opinion that there are no natural rights and that your actual rights are not inalienable. So we know that this particular nitpicking is just an argument of convenience for you.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5143 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-15-2017 12:11 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5145 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-15-2017 1:34 PM NoNukes has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11812
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 5145 of 5179 (823680)
11-15-2017 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 5144 by NoNukes
11-15-2017 12:29 PM


Re: Endless Mass Shootings
You say this despite having expressed the opinion that there are no natural rights and that your actual rights are not inalienable. So we know that this particular nitpicking is just an argument of convenience for you.

Piss off, there are natural rights.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5144 by NoNukes, posted 11-15-2017 12:29 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5158 by NoNukes, posted 11-15-2017 8:00 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

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