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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Faith
Member
Posts: 26593
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 631 of 793 (823622)
11-14-2017 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 616 by Percy
11-13-2017 1:26 PM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
Gee, the "50 million Frenchmen can't be wrong" fallacy pops up yet again.

If you divide the world into two categories, "Christian" and "other", "Christians" are outnumbered.

I'm sure you wouldn't feel free to give your utterly uneducated opinion on some authoritative scientific treatise, in fact you'd be very polite and deferential to those who have studied it more than you have, but for some reason ignorami feel quite free to slather the Bible with their ignorance. Millions of people who revere, believe and follow the revelations in the Bible, even the source of all the blessings westerners receive in this world, should be enough of an answer, but arrogant antiChristianity rules the world today. And that includes the "scholars" who make it all up as they go along too instead of submitting to it as God's word.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by Percy, posted 11-13-2017 1:26 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 633 by PaulK, posted 11-14-2017 1:48 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 634 by Percy, posted 11-14-2017 1:49 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 637 by jar, posted 11-14-2017 3:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26593
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 632 of 793 (823623)
11-14-2017 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 617 by Percy
11-13-2017 2:00 PM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
Sorry, a simple descriptive report of a miraculous event is a simple descriptive report of a miraculous event, it's history.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 617 by Percy, posted 11-13-2017 2:00 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by Percy, posted 11-14-2017 2:00 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13307
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 633 of 793 (823624)
11-14-2017 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 631 by Faith
11-14-2017 1:19 PM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
quote:

I'm sure you wouldn't feel free to give your utterly uneducated opinion on some authoritative scientific treatise, in fact you'd be very polite and deferential to those who have studied it more than you have, but for some reason ignorami feel quite free to slather the Bible with their ignorance.

Indeed you do. Perhaps you should show proper deference to those who have studied it instead of lying about them and dismissing their work.

quote:

And that includes the "scholars" who make it all up as they go along too instead of submitting to it as God's word.

But, of course, you won’t.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Faith, posted 11-14-2017 1:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16158
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 634 of 793 (823625)
11-14-2017 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 631 by Faith
11-14-2017 1:19 PM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
Faith writes:

I'm sure you wouldn't feel free to give your utterly uneducated opinion on some authoritative scientific treatise, in fact you'd be very polite and deferential to those who have studied it more than you have, but for some reason ignorami feel quite free to slather the Bible with their ignorance.

Ah, the fallacy of argument from authority. In other words you have no answers, only fallacies and insults.

Millions of people...

There's that "50 million Frenchmen can't be wrong" fallacy again.

...who revere, believe and follow the revelations in the Bible, even the source of all the blessings westerners receive in this world, should be enough of an answer,...

Fallacies aren't much of an answer.

...but arrogant antiChristianity...

I'm just having a discussion here. All the arrogance is coming from you.

...rules the world today.

So in your view antiChristianity rules the world today, even though Christianity is the largest religion in the world.
Well, it's the largest before you subtract all the Christian sects that to you aren't truly Christian.

And that includes the "scholars" who make it all up as they go along too instead of submitting to it as God's word.

You know, you haven't ended up actually saying anything, just like your previous post. There *is* a discussion taking place here. Did you want to say anything germane to the discussion? Maybe respond meaningfully to what I said in Message 609 to KBertsche that the Gospels lack evidenced facts and are a combination of truths, fallacies, unverifiabilities, internal and external contradictions, and impossibilities.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Faith, posted 11-14-2017 1:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16158
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 635 of 793 (823626)
11-14-2017 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 632 by Faith
11-14-2017 1:22 PM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
Faith writes:

Sorry, a simple descriptive report of a miraculous event is a simple descriptive report of a miraculous event, it's history.

Well, there's a healthy non-response. We already know your opinion - the question concerns whether you can provide any support for it. All that study you did, all those books you read, all those people you conversed with, all those videos you've watched, everything that provided you the evidence for your faith, you can't bring any of that into the discussion?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 632 by Faith, posted 11-14-2017 1:22 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13307
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 636 of 793 (823627)
11-14-2017 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 626 by Percy
11-14-2017 10:06 AM


Re: The Evidence Of 1 Corinthians 15:5-8
Well, that is riddled with errors and falsehoods and unsupported assertions.

But to deal with the central point, evidence does not have to be infallibly true. Only tautologies are infallibly true and they are useless as evidence. That something might be wrong or untrue is not a good reason to disregard it as evidence - because everything we use as evidence MIGHT be wrong or untrue.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 626 by Percy, posted 11-14-2017 10:06 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 638 by Percy, posted 11-14-2017 6:15 PM PaulK has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29609
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 637 of 793 (823630)
11-14-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 631 by Faith
11-14-2017 1:19 PM


Reality is not anti-Christian
Faith writes:

Millions of people who revere, believe and follow the revelations in the Bible, even the source of all the blessings westerners receive in this world, should be enough of an answer, but arrogant antiChristianity rules the world today. And that includes the "scholars" who make it all up as they go along too instead of submitting to it as God's word.

Sorry Faith but there is no anti-Christianity in pointing out that there is no evidence Jesus ever lived or the fact that there is no such thing as "The Bible™" or that the Bible stories contain factual errors and contradictions or the so called "Bible Christians" deny what is actually written in the Bible stories or that all of the various Bibles and the stories included or excluded in those "Bibles" are all just the work of man.

Edited by jar, : fix sub-title


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Faith, posted 11-14-2017 1:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16158
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 638 of 793 (823634)
11-14-2017 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 636 by PaulK
11-14-2017 2:13 PM


Re: The Evidence Of 1 Corinthians 15:5-8
PaulK writes:

Well, that is riddled with errors and falsehoods and unsupported assertions.

Gee, I had no idea discussion was so easy. Just skip all the arguments and get right to the smears.

But to deal with the central point, evidence does not have to be infallibly true.

Reality is always infallibly true. Evidence that results from real events is reliable, dependable, true. The written word could be true, false, anywhere in between, or a combination.

That something might be wrong or untrue is not a good reason to disregard it as evidence - ...

That something might be wrong or untrue, especially something like the written word that has a long and well-established history of often being wrong and untrue, should be setting off alarm bells, not leading one to argue that it should be accepted as evidence anyway.

There is a profound difference between evidence produced by real events versus what is produced by filtering reality through the meanderings of the human mind, or not even involving reality at all.

... because everything we use as evidence MIGHT be wrong or untrue.

Reality cannot be wrong or untrue.

It feels like you're arguing this way only because you believe the NT is true on the general details except where they misinterpreted some natural phenomena as miracles. You *want* to believe the NT, so you have to believe it somehow represents evidence. It doesn't. It's a typical religious work, like the Old Testament, the Koran, the Book of Mormon, the Bhagavad Gita, etc.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 636 by PaulK, posted 11-14-2017 2:13 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 639 by Phat, posted 11-14-2017 7:26 PM Percy has responded
 Message 641 by PaulK, posted 11-15-2017 12:21 AM Percy has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10041
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 639 of 793 (823637)
11-14-2017 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 638 by Percy
11-14-2017 6:15 PM


Reality is never wrong but we are.
Percy writes:

Reality is always infallibly true. Evidence that results from real events is reliable, dependable, true. The written word could be true, false, anywhere in between, or a combination.

By and large, the words and parables, lessons, admonitions, and instructions contained within the books of the Bible are useful. It is humans themselves, using these lessons out of intended context, that is the problem. As an example, almost all of the Proverbs contain some useful instruction, in my opinion. The point of argumentation, however, is evidence. Cold hard facts.

I used to think and believe virtually the same thing that Faith does. I believed and still tend to believe that humans are by and large selfish, greedy, and manipulative at our core. I believed that there was a spiritual war between inner good and inner selfishness. For that reason, I would agree that there was nearly a conspiracy amongst scholars between believers and non-believers. Now...I'm not sure. It would be nice to believe that those of us who believe are somehow enlightened and equipped to resist selfish motives more than the unbelievers, but my own observations of my own character show this to be false.

I don't like these arguments, for they have burst some bubbles in my preferred fantasy of how God is and what He is doing and will do for me. I never wanted to doubt my beliefs. For that reason, I can only question them.

Percy writes:

That something might be wrong or untrue, especially something like the written word that has a long and well-established history of often being wrong and untrue, should be setting off alarm bells...

I have never seen examples of the written word being wrong or untrue. Can you elaborate?

Percy writes:

Reality cannot be wrong or untrue.

However, our perception of reality might be warped. I have not dismissed the possibility of a fallen human nature. I see too much wrong with myself to doubt that everyone experiences something similar at some point in their lives...even Mother Theresa or Gandhi or anyone (except possibly Jesus) and that leads to another cognitive dissonance within my beliefs. If Jesus were as imperfect as the rest of us, what hope for humanity would we collectively or individually have?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by Percy, posted 11-14-2017 6:15 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 640 by jar, posted 11-14-2017 7:49 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 642 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2017 3:39 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 644 by Percy, posted 11-15-2017 9:52 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29609
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 640 of 793 (823640)
11-14-2017 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 639 by Phat
11-14-2017 7:26 PM


Re: Reality is never wrong but we are.
Phat writes:

I have never seen examples of the written word being wrong or untrue. Can you elaborate?

The Genesis creation accounts are mutually exclusive so one or both must be wrong and reality shows that the truth is that both are wrong and untrue.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 639 by Phat, posted 11-14-2017 7:26 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13307
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 641 of 793 (823642)
11-15-2017 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 638 by Percy
11-14-2017 6:15 PM


Re: The Evidence Of 1 Corinthians 15:5-8
quote:

Gee, I had no idea discussion was so easy. Just skip all the arguments and get right to the smears.

Maybe if you bothered to lay out a coherent position I’d feel more like putting in the work to answer it. But after losing one post it just wasn’t worth the effort to rewrite it.

quote:

Reality is always infallibly true. Evidence that results from real events is reliable, dependable, true. The written word could be true, false, anywhere in between, or a combination.

Unfortunately for you we do not have reality, only our perception of reality which could be “true, false, anywhere in between, or a combination“. And it is impossible to be absolutely certain which it is.

quote:

There is a profound difference between evidence produced by real events versus what is produced by filtering reality through the meanderings of the human mind, or not even involving reality at all.

Our perceptions of reality go through the same filtering. When the writer is being honest we are getting their perception of reality. That problems exist does not mean that they cannot be dealt with adequately.

quote:

It feels like you're arguing this way only because you believe the NT is true on the general details except where they misinterpreted some natural phenomena as miracles

Which is a fine example of your perception of reality being utterly wrong. If anyone should be accused of bias, surely it must be the person who is taking the clearly unreasonable land extreme position - which would be you.

In reality I have no problem dismissing parts of the NT as fiction. Both Nativity stories are in my view fictional. The Empty Tomb story is more likely fiction than fact. If you cannot distinguish between unctprituczlly excepting a story as fact and carefully evaluating it to pull out the bits that are likely true then the problem is yours and it is quite a severe one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by Percy, posted 11-14-2017 6:15 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 645 by Percy, posted 11-15-2017 10:07 AM PaulK has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5155
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 642 of 793 (823652)
11-15-2017 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 639 by Phat
11-14-2017 7:26 PM


Re: Reality is never wrong but we are.
Phat writes:

It would be nice to believe that those of us who believe are somehow enlightened and equipped to resist selfish motives more than the unbelievers, but my own observations of my own character show this to be false.

And as you observe every creationist that comes her lying through their teeth and being and remaining wilfully ignorant it must only reinforce this obvious truth. Our very own Faith is a great example of how dangerous irrational belief and certainty is and how it flies against everything Jesus himself taught.

If you want further proof watch a few atheists, you'll find them to be perfectly normal people just as capable of 'resisting selfish motives,' as you put it as anyone else. (Of course they would never use that kind od masochistic language.)


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 639 by Phat, posted 11-14-2017 7:26 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
kbertsche
Member
Posts: 1411
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 643 of 793 (823662)
11-15-2017 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 626 by Percy
11-14-2017 10:06 AM


Re: The Evidence Of 1 Corinthians 15:5-8
Percy writes:

It isn't that I'm "ignoring written accounts as evidence." It's that I'm pointing out that they *aren't* evidence. When we write we're recording our thoughts, but those thoughts could be about anything, from real accounts to complete fictions, from fully accurate to full of mistakes. At best writing represents an effort to create an accurate description of evidence from the real world.


We understand the distinction that you are making between written evidence and other kinds of evidence, and it is a useful one. Nonetheless, it is very idiosyncratic (and, I believe, wrong) to say that written accounts are not evidence. Historians routinely use written accounts as evidence in reconstructing the past. This is often their main evidence, in fact.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." – Albert Einstein

“I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously.” – Erwin Schroedinger


This message is a reply to:
 Message 626 by Percy, posted 11-14-2017 10:06 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 646 by Percy, posted 11-15-2017 10:17 AM kbertsche has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16158
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 644 of 793 (823669)
11-15-2017 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 639 by Phat
11-14-2017 7:26 PM


Re: Reality is never wrong but we are.
Phat writes:

I have never seen examples of the written word being wrong or untrue. Can you elaborate?

I'm not sure why you're asking this question that seems to have so obvious an answer, and it's not just the written word, it's also anything people say. The written word is receiving more attention in this thread because we're focused on the Bible, which is the written.

How's this for an example of "the written word being wrong or untrue":

quote:
"We’ve signed more bills -- and I’m talking about through the legislature -- than any president ever."

Or this:

quote:
"But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides."

Or this:

quote:
"I'm like, wait a minute. I made a speech. I looked out, the field was, it looked like a million, million and a half people."

However, our perception of reality might be warped.

While I think our perception of reality is inaccurate, I wouldn't myself use the term "warped." I'd more say something like it is colored and filtered through our own biological senses and cognitive processing.

I have not dismissed the possibility of a fallen human nature.

Our biological deficiencies are shared by the rest of the animal world, and I don't see any fallen nature, human or otherwise.

Sometimes what you write makes it seem that you feel as if there's a devil inside yourself that is your own fault and that you blame yourself for. I'd say accept and love who you are. If you're like me then you also have standards that exceed your reach and that make you regret not being better, but that regret doesn't mean we're not already being the best person we can be, and we shouldn't blame ourselves for not being able to perform miracles and transform ourselves into someone we're not.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 639 by Phat, posted 11-14-2017 7:26 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 707 by Phat, posted 11-17-2017 9:09 AM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16158
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 645 of 793 (823670)
11-15-2017 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 641 by PaulK
11-15-2017 12:21 AM


Re: The Evidence Of 1 Corinthians 15:5-8
PaulK writes:

Maybe if you bothered to lay out a coherent position I’d feel more like putting in the work to answer it. But after losing one post it just wasn’t worth the effort to rewrite it.

Sorry you lost your post. If it was a crash then I guess it's gone, but if not then sometimes you can get stuff back by clicking the back button, or if you lost a tab then you can often get it back, at least in Chrome, using the History menu item.

I'm also sorry you can't find anything coherent in the position I've layed out. The position itself can be expressed simply: The written word is not evidence. The rationale for that position is somewhat longer, and it become significantly longer as our discussion progressed.

Unfortunately for you we do not have reality, only our perception of reality which could be “true, false, anywhere in between, or a combination“. And it is impossible to be absolutely certain which it is.

True, but that's a constant that applies to everything we view, whether the written word or true evidence.

Which is a fine example of your perception of reality being utterly wrong. If anyone should be accused of bias, surely it must be the person who is taking the clearly unreasonable and extreme position - which would be you.

This is a clear statement of how you feel, but you include no justification. That what people say and write is frequently unreliable is hardly an "unreasonable and extreme position." To put your faith and trust in the written word is to trust reality after it's been put through a meat grinder.

In reality I have no problem dismissing parts of the NT as fiction. Both Nativity stories are in my view fictional. The Empty Tomb story is more likely fiction than fact. If you cannot distinguish between uncritically excepting a story as fact and carefully evaluating it to pull out the bits that are likely true then the problem is yours and it is quite a severe one.

We're not so far apart as you think. We agree that some parts of the NT are true, some are false, some are unverifiable, some are internally or externally inconsistent or both, and some are impossible. Where we disagree is on our ability to accurately ferret out which category each passage falls into.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 641 by PaulK, posted 11-15-2017 12:21 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 647 by PaulK, posted 11-15-2017 12:41 PM Percy has responded

    
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