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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 456 of 1540 (822890)
11-03-2017 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 451 by jar
11-02-2017 8:00 PM


Re: Try to understand the reality of "BELIEF"
I would use the marketing slogan "Christianity is Christ".
You would then ask what that even meant.
I would reply with another slogan...Its not a religion, its a relationship...
You would likely go "Huh"? and tell me that my bumper sticker theology was likely word salad.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 451 by jar, posted 11-02-2017 8:00 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 9:47 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 457 of 1540 (822891)
11-03-2017 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 446 by jar
11-02-2017 4:20 PM


Re: Try to understand the reality of "BELIEF"
jar writes:
People can believe in things that are not based on fact, reality, reason, logic or even common sense.
The people who wrote the Bible stories were under the very same handicaps we experience; they were trying to explain what THEY believed.
If I believe in the Nicene Creed, even if there is no God, no Holy Spirit, Jesus never existed, there is no life after death or judgement or salvation; I still believe in the Nicene Creed.
Yes, I see. You believe in personal responsibility towards others even if Jesus was simply a fictional character in a book. I liked another answer that you gave years ago, in Who Can Be Saved? A Christian Perspective where you said in message 43
jar writes:
Christ died for the sins of the world. Everyone. All of us, sinner and saint, believer and non-believer.
Just as someone's belief in the existence or non-existence of GOD has no bearing on whether or not GOD exists, belief has no bearing on the fact that Christ died for the forgiveness of our sins. Christ died for those who believe in him, and those who do not.
Because in this statement you at least affirmed that Christ's death had value. I keep forgetting that you were trained at an early age to take on a variety of arguments which did not necessarily reflect your personal beliefs.
My belief depends more on Christ existing and being who He is rather than on my personal responsibility to society.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by jar, posted 11-02-2017 4:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 9:53 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 460 of 1540 (822898)
11-03-2017 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by jar
11-03-2017 9:47 AM


Re: Try to understand the reality of "BELIEF"
jar writes:
Each author was writing about beliefs. Each author created the God Character needed for that story.
Even though this line of thought makes me uncomfortable, I'll go with it for now.
Reason being that I need a God character who is real, not one I make up.
We have argued before about this and about how I create a God who favors Phat.
The fact is, I could not live with a GOD who treated me no different from pond scum. You, on the other hand, have no problem even if God did not exist you would still believe in the Christianity that you market...one that favors no jew or Christian or individual above the group. You need personal responsibility...I reluctantly embrace it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 9:47 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by jar, posted 11-03-2017 10:43 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 463 by ringo, posted 11-03-2017 11:54 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 464 of 1540 (822922)
11-03-2017 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 463 by ringo
11-03-2017 11:54 AM


Re: Try to understand the reality of "BELIEF"
You think that if Jesus says "jump" I ask how high? I'm as rebellious as the next guy...

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by ringo, posted 11-03-2017 11:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 465 by ringo, posted 11-03-2017 1:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 477 of 1540 (822989)
11-04-2017 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 472 by Tangle
11-04-2017 6:35 AM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
Tangle writes:
In fact it's been so unsuccessfully conveyed that the various interpretations of it have created believers that have killed each other over its meaning for centuries.
Your God must be the poorest communicator the world has ever seen.
Or perhaps it is the one who listens who has the problem. If God simply uploaded his truth into everyone's minds, there would be no room for faith and faith evidently is the preferred result rather than evidence. Of course, i can also see your argument. But isn't that human nature? Heck, we don't even all agree over global warming as a threat. Who could expect us to come to a consensus regarding faith?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by Tangle, posted 11-04-2017 6:35 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 485 by ringo, posted 11-05-2017 1:42 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 486 of 1540 (823059)
11-05-2017 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 485 by ringo
11-05-2017 1:42 PM


Re: One More Thing For The Record
ringo writes:
Faith is only the "preferred result" when there's nothing else. Faith is a last resort, not a glorious ideal.
And yet you have more faith than I do. I expect either the government or wealthier people to take care of the homeless while you sacrifice your own potential retirement money to help them. That takes faith!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 485 by ringo, posted 11-05-2017 1:42 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 487 by jar, posted 11-05-2017 3:49 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 496 by ringo, posted 11-06-2017 11:02 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 595 of 1540 (823548)
11-12-2017 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 589 by Percy
11-12-2017 9:51 AM


Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
percy writes:
How else does one distinguish between fact and fiction but for evidence?
Intuition, perhaps?
Granted I also have to allow for the possibility that I am wrong. The more information I gather, the more I feed it into my internal computer. If I am wise, I dont simply feed in information that validates my beliefs.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 589 by Percy, posted 11-12-2017 9:51 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 596 of 1540 (823549)
11-12-2017 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 586 by kbertsche
11-11-2017 10:42 PM


Re: ting Re: How Faith is based on evidence and yet a gift
I believe that the evidence for the Christian faith is strong and compelling. The atheists here believe otherwise.
Do you mean the evidence that Christ is a real influence in many peoples lives? Perhaps a year or so from now, someone can interview the survivors of that church shooting in Texas to see how it affected their faith. To me, the data would be useful.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 586 by kbertsche, posted 11-11-2017 10:42 PM kbertsche has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 639 of 1540 (823637)
11-14-2017 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 638 by Percy
11-14-2017 6:15 PM


Reality is never wrong but we are.
Percy writes:
Reality is always infallibly true. Evidence that results from real events is reliable, dependable, true. The written word could be true, false, anywhere in between, or a combination.
By and large, the words and parables, lessons, admonitions, and instructions contained within the books of the Bible are useful. It is humans themselves, using these lessons out of intended context, that is the problem. As an example, almost all of the Proverbs contain some useful instruction, in my opinion. The point of argumentation, however, is evidence. Cold hard facts.
I used to think and believe virtually the same thing that Faith does. I believed and still tend to believe that humans are by and large selfish, greedy, and manipulative at our core. I believed that there was a spiritual war between inner good and inner selfishness. For that reason, I would agree that there was nearly a conspiracy amongst scholars between believers and non-believers. Now...I'm not sure. It would be nice to believe that those of us who believe are somehow enlightened and equipped to resist selfish motives more than the unbelievers, but my own observations of my own character show this to be false.
I don't like these arguments, for they have burst some bubbles in my preferred fantasy of how God is and what He is doing and will do for me. I never wanted to doubt my beliefs. For that reason, I can only question them.
Percy writes:
That something might be wrong or untrue, especially something like the written word that has a long and well-established history of often being wrong and untrue, should be setting off alarm bells...
I have never seen examples of the written word being wrong or untrue. Can you elaborate?
Percy writes:
Reality cannot be wrong or untrue.
However, our perception of reality might be warped. I have not dismissed the possibility of a fallen human nature. I see too much wrong with myself to doubt that everyone experiences something similar at some point in their lives...even Mother Theresa or Gandhi or anyone (except possibly Jesus) and that leads to another cognitive dissonance within my beliefs. If Jesus were as imperfect as the rest of us, what hope for humanity would we collectively or individually have?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 638 by Percy, posted 11-14-2017 6:15 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 640 by jar, posted 11-14-2017 7:49 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 642 by Tangle, posted 11-15-2017 3:39 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 644 by Percy, posted 11-15-2017 9:52 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 674 of 1540 (823740)
11-16-2017 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 673 by jar
11-16-2017 9:30 AM


Re: How can a miracle be identified?
Good question. I'm going to take this line of discussion here.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 673 by jar, posted 11-16-2017 9:30 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 675 of 1540 (823747)
11-16-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 672 by Percy
11-16-2017 8:43 AM


Re: God's given LOTS of evidence and you refuse it
Faith writes:
Read the entire Bible then, it's chock full of evidence for miracles,...
Which means that the discussion becomes scientific rather than faith-based. If you choose to explore the science behind miracles, go here.
Percy writes:
I have no interest in seeking evidence of miracles because I don't believe they exist. They're a common element of many religions, that's all.
So one may ask you if you have any interest in seeking evidence of God or...rather...have you already formed a belief that God does not exist? If so, the ball is in topic starter faiths court to attempt to encourage you to believe. Unless of course, she wishes to discuss evidence rather than faith and belief.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 672 by Percy, posted 11-16-2017 8:43 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 683 by Faith, posted 11-16-2017 2:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 677 of 1540 (823759)
11-16-2017 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 661 by Percy
11-15-2017 9:17 PM


Who Wrote John? Why Did They Write John?
Percy writes:
Do you really think many Christians have looked into the evidence for who wrote John?
Personally, i was never concerned so much about who wrote it--be it John, God through John, another author, or God through another author.
I was more interested in why they wrote it and what the motive was for saying the words they said.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 661 by Percy, posted 11-15-2017 9:17 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 679 by jar, posted 11-16-2017 12:58 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 680 of 1540 (823773)
11-16-2017 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 679 by jar
11-16-2017 12:58 PM


Re: Who Wrote John? Why Did They Write John?
Did most of the canons include it?
How would we determine which other of the 66 books were "marketing tools" and which were identified as part of the book?
Should there be only 3 gospels?
Add by edit:
Also, since you use the term marketing was there any financial benefits to writing one's own gospel? Isn't Christianity a plethora of beliefs rather than only one?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 679 by jar, posted 11-16-2017 12:58 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 682 by jar, posted 11-16-2017 2:00 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 707 of 1540 (823805)
11-17-2017 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 644 by Percy
11-15-2017 9:52 AM


Percy 2001 Unplugged
When I said "written word" I meant in regards to the Bible and not written words in general. But I have a question for you---perhaps related to your personal beliefs.
Percy writes:
I believe in God, but not the God of Christianity, nor the God of Islam, nor the God of Hinduism, nor the God of Buddhism, nor the God of any of the world's religions. My personal religion has no book of rules and penalties unless you count the laws of physics. The God that I believe in has not yet revealed himself to us in any overt way, and I don't know that he ever will. All the world's religious books and beliefs merely reflect man's yearning to know the power and the purpose of existence.
You stated this in 2001. Do you still believe that way, or has your belief evolved any?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 644 by Percy, posted 11-15-2017 9:52 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 710 by Percy, posted 11-17-2017 2:03 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 739 of 1540 (823851)
11-17-2017 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 738 by Modulous
11-17-2017 10:24 PM


Re: john
Mod writes:
The evidence I see strongly suggests many people think it is grounds for belief. An apparent witness report is grounds for belief, even if you have reasons beyond the evidence in examination to for opting to disbelieve the witness.
Personally, I tend to believe written or even verbal reports from people whom I know personally (or to a lesser extent online) but that is probably not the right way to go about it. If someone whom I knew said that they saw a UFO, for example, and then described the event as they perceived it, I may take their testimony as possible credibility after ruling out any mental disorder or substance abuse. This is not possible, however, with authors whom we have never met.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 738 by Modulous, posted 11-17-2017 10:24 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 751 by ringo, posted 11-18-2017 10:54 AM Phat has not replied

  
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