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Author Topic:   Genesis "kinds" may be Nested Hierarchies.
Tangle
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Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 34 of 218 (822221)
10-21-2017 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Dredge
10-20-2017 9:06 PM


Re: Dredge: yes? Nested Hierarchies = kinds = clades
Dredge writes:
That is to say, the words, "according to their kinds" suggests a fixity of kinds.
Fine, but you can't have it both ways. Noah either filled his boat with every 'kind' exactly as we see them today, or he took some subset of them which then evolved into all the organisms we see today.
They're either fixed or they're not, which are you choosing?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Dredge, posted 10-20-2017 9:06 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 68 of 218 (822529)
10-27-2017 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Dredge
10-26-2017 11:38 PM


Dredge writes:
Don't be silly. It's not an "observation". It's an atheist fable which got its inspiration from a science-fiction novel written by Charles Darwin.
You continue to display total ignorance of the system you criticise, nested hierarchies where established a hundred years before Darwin by a Lutherian Christian, Carl Linnaeus.
The Earth's creation is the glory of God, as seen from the works of Nature by Man alone. The study of nature would reveal the Divine Order of God's creation, and it was the naturalist's task to construct a 'natural classification' that would reveal this Order in the universe."
quote:
The Linnaean system classified nature within a nested hierarchy, starting with three kingdoms. Kingdoms were divided into classes and they, in turn, into orders, and thence into genera (singular: genus), which were divided into Species (singular: species).[151] Below the rank of species he sometimes recognised taxa of a lower (unnamed) rank; these have since acquired standardised names such as variety in botany and subspecies in zoology. Modern taxonomy includes a rank of family between order and genus and a rank of phylum between kingdom and class that were not present in Linnaeus' original system.[152]
Linnaeus' groupings were based upon shared physical characteristics, and not simply upon differences.[152] Of his higher groupings, only those for animals are still in use, and the groupings themselves have been significantly changed since their conception, as have the principles behind them. Nevertheless, Linnaeus is credited with establishing the idea of a hierarchical structure of classification which is based upon observable characteristics and intended to reflect natural relationships.[149][153] While the underlying details concerning what are considered to be scientifically valid "observable characteristics" have changed with expanding knowledge (for example, DNA sequencing, unavailable in Linnaeus' time, has proven to be a tool of considerable utility for classifying living organisms and establishing their evolutionary relationships), the fundamental principle remains sound.
The thing about science is that because it's founded on observation and experiment, it can be reproduced and confirmed by anyone with a wiil to do it. You can do it yourself with taxonomy - go outside find a beetle and pickup a biological 'identification key' and see how well it works.
Of course, you won't. What you'll do is continue reading crap on creationist web sites, not really understanding it, then re-posting it here as one liners and not respond to the real information you're given in reply. This means that you'll just repeat your lies in another month as though nothing has happened.
Carry on, you're doing a great job of discrediting your religion, it's totally dishonest.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Dredge, posted 10-26-2017 11:38 PM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 93 of 218 (823649)
11-15-2017 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Dredge
11-15-2017 2:34 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
Dredge writes:
I'd forgotten about how Nebraska Man was invented on the basis of one pig's tooth. That episode demonstrated that the standards of evolution science are of the highest quality.
In the highly unlikely event you'd like to know the actual facts about Nebraska Man I post the Wiki on it below. What you should - but won't - notice is that it happened almost 100 years ago, was never accepted as an ape by science and was rejected by the same science a couple of years later. This proces is how science works and it's how you got to hear about it.
In contrast, the ignoramouses and liars at your creationist web sites still bring these things up as though there was something wrong with the process when it's actually conclusive proof that science works. Mistakes and faulty hypotheses are discarded and knowledge increases.
quote:
From its initial description, Hesperopithecus was regarded as an inconclusive find by a large portion of the scientific community. Examinations of the specimen continued, and the original describers continued to draw comparisons between Hesperopithecus and apes. Further field work on the site in the summers of 1925 and 1926 uncovered other parts of the skeleton. These discoveries revealed that the tooth was incorrectly identified. According to these discovered pieces, the tooth belonged neither to a man nor an ape, but to a fossil of an extinct species of peccary called Prosthennops serus (i.e. a pig). The misidentification was attributed to the fact that the original specimen was severely weathered. The earlier identification as an ape was retracted in the journal Science in 1927.[3][
Nebraska Man - Wikipedia

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Dredge, posted 11-15-2017 2:34 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Dredge, posted 11-28-2017 3:21 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 110 of 218 (824307)
11-26-2017 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Dredge
11-26-2017 6:37 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
Dredge writes:
They have to arrive at a nested hierarchies otherwise evolution falls to pieces
Hey, I think you've finally got it.
Now you know how to disprove evolution, why don't you do it? It should be easy, just pick a family or a genera and show that there is no nested hierarchy. This is objective, repeatable stuff - all the specimens are there in the museums and text books, just do it, get that Nobel Prize.
It's amazing it hasn't been done already isn't it? After all, there's a whole Creationist Instutute just desperate to find loopholes.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Dredge, posted 11-26-2017 6:37 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 115 of 218 (824337)
11-27-2017 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Dredge
11-27-2017 5:11 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
Dredge writes:
I can't produce any nested hiearchies at all coz there are too many gaps that can't be accounted for.
Oh come on, it wouldn't be hard.
Find me a tripodal mammal, or an insect - or any beast at all - with wheels. Too hard?
Find me a cold blooded animal with mammary glands or a fish with fur. A bird with teeth? How about a shark with bones? A whale with gills?
It should be really, really easy. How about an ant with four legs?
If you can't come up dozens of these things there's only one conclusion isn't there?
On the other hand here's how science has organised 2 million organisms into nested hierarchies, maybe you can show them where they're wrong.
opentree

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Dredge, posted 11-27-2017 5:11 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 120 of 218 (824407)
11-28-2017 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Dredge
11-28-2017 3:21 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
Dredge writes:
The Nebraska Man tooth was "severely weathered". In keeping with the highest standards of science, Nebraska Man was invented on the basis of one old weathered tooth.
And your point is what? That a find made it into the press almost 100 years ago, was regarded as inconclusive by science at the time, then formally rejected by science 5 years later.
Are you saying that you're impressed by the ability of science to research its findings thoroughly before accepting them as knowledge or what?
... which reminds me ... Did you know that in 1872, an attempt was made to elect Charles Darwin to the Zoological section of the French Institute, but he was rejected - on account of the theories proposed in his books being seen as "not science, but a mass of assertions and absolutely gratuitous hypotheses, often evidently fallacious."
So 150 years ago Charles Darwin didn't get into a french institute. Wow, that must mean that everything written about evolution in the next 150 years must be wrong.
I was so worried about this that I spent 3 minutes googling what Darwin was a member of and what awards he won when he was alive. Apparently Italy and Germany liked him he was granted membership of the Turin Academy and the Berlin Academy, and, of course several London Academies. Then there were his gongs
quote:
Awards that he received were the Royal Medal in 1853 (The royal medal was awarded annually to only 3 people by the Royal Society) the royal medal is given to those for the most important contributions to the natural knowledge, The Wallaston Medal in 1859, the Wallaston medal is specifically scientific award for geology, it is the highest award that is granted award given by the Geological Society of London , and The Copley Medal in 1853 (Also distributed by the Royal Society) is given to those for outstanding achievements in the research in any of the branches of science, and it alternates between the physical sciences and biological studies. These are the some of the awards that recognized Charles Darwin for his work.
I'm sure there's more but really...do you think that the French Institute still rejects the theory of evolution or do you think they might now think that they made one of the biggest mistakes in their history? I've a hunch that they now accept the ToE don't you? Red faces all round, that's politics for you, if you deny the truth sooner or later it will slap you in the face.
Do you understand that even if Darwin's work had received no plaudits at all, it would still stand? Do you understand that after 150 years, his work still stands when developments in genetics and cell biology could quite easily have proven him wrong?
Do you understand that this isn't religion? We don't worship infallible scientists and claim inerrant writings just because they're old. Science grows and modifies and if it's found to be in error it corrects.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Dredge, posted 11-28-2017 3:21 AM Dredge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Dredge, posted 11-30-2017 4:24 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 135 of 218 (824532)
11-30-2017 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Dredge
11-30-2017 4:24 AM


Re: platypus nested hierarchy
Dredge writes:
My point is, not only was Nebraska Man fabricated on the basis of one tooth, that tooth was very weathered and thus hard to identify. Junk science built on junk evidence, in other words.
And this find was regarded as unsafe at the time and formally rejected by scientists 5 years later after further research at the site.
Somehow you think that this 100 year old example of an over-the-top media reaction to a debunked find is evidence against evolution? Is this what you're saying? Are you this puddled?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Dredge, posted 11-30-2017 4:24 AM Dredge has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(4)
Message 169 of 218 (825268)
12-11-2017 5:28 AM


Trolling apart, it's sort of interesting to compare the standard of evidence required to form a view.
A book - or rather a section of a book - written by unknown people somewhere around 2,500 years ago based on spoken legend mentions a mythical beast and this becomes good evidence for the existence of fire-breathing, flying dragons.
But 300 years of evidence-based endeavour by science building the physiolgical structure of life on earth from real, objective, reproducible tangible fact is dismissed in a hand wave.
That's the end of it really, non-overlapping magisteria.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 213 of 218 (826222)
12-26-2017 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Dredge
12-26-2017 12:28 AM


Dredge writes:
A bombardier beetle has no evolutionary history (unsurprisingly), so how can it fit into a nested hierarchy and the Tree of Life?
There are 500 species of bombadier beetle and they fit very easily in 'the tree of life' you'll find them inside the Class Insecta, in the Order Coleoptera.
You have been told quite a lot of outright lies about bombadier beetles by that nutcase Gish, I know you're not interested in finding out what science says about them but for others that might be reading, you'll find it here.
Bombardier Beetles and the Argument of Design

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Dredge, posted 12-26-2017 12:28 AM Dredge has not replied

  
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