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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 5028 of 5179 (814130)
07-04-2017 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 5027 by ringo
07-04-2017 11:40 AM


Sure it dt does. Being shot is not a successful defence. If you get shot, it's just dumb luck if you survive.
You have a point, but you are also over-simplifying. Not every situation is a one-on-one where the first shot ends the altercation. In fact, that's not what happens most of the time even with modern weapons. Once somebody starts shooting, particularly at a policeman, they may miss, or have a second or third policeman who can return fire.
So, no a gun is not as effective at defense as would be an impenetrable force field or a kevlar vest, but a gun can be a deterrent, and it can be used to lay down cover to pin down a shooter else even if you never hit the shooter. Guns do have some defensive value. Trying to make absolute statements to the contrary just makes you an extremist.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5027 by ringo, posted 07-04-2017 11:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5030 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-05-2017 10:36 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 5034 by ringo, posted 07-05-2017 3:24 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 5057 of 5179 (821241)
10-04-2017 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 5047 by ringo
10-03-2017 12:27 PM


Re: Las Vegas
Silencers are for hearing protection?
I'll admit to having a skeptical first reaction, but then I remembered the ear protection I had to wear when I had to qualify with a pistol in the military. If I had to work at gun range, I would like it very much if the weapons all had silencers. It would be good for my health.
I don't like the idea of silencers being used for hunting. I think same goes for any other situation where a loud report is useful for warning folks that shooters are around.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5047 by ringo, posted 10-03-2017 12:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5060 by ringo, posted 10-04-2017 3:13 PM NoNukes has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 5073 of 5179 (821287)
10-05-2017 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 5069 by ringo
10-04-2017 4:56 PM


Re: silencers
It doesn't matter if silencers have good effects. We ban things because of the bad effects.
Everything has bad effects. There must be at least some kind of weighing.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5069 by ringo, posted 10-04-2017 4:56 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5084 by ringo, posted 10-05-2017 11:35 AM NoNukes has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 5089 of 5179 (821326)
10-05-2017 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 5084 by ringo
10-05-2017 11:35 AM


Re: silencers
NoNukes writes:
Everything has bad effects. There must be at least some kind of weighing.
Who said otherwise?
So far, your posts have shown complete disdain for a number of folks who have made that exact point.
Just to be absolutely clear, the reason we want to get input from doctors on medical practices is exactly for that reason. We should do that even if it is the doctors we are regulating. The same principle does not require that we consult murderers on how to punish them. We could instead consult psychologists or the police.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5084 by ringo, posted 10-05-2017 11:35 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5097 by ringo, posted 10-06-2017 11:59 AM NoNukes has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 5093 of 5179 (821338)
10-05-2017 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 5092 by Modulous
10-05-2017 4:09 PM


Re: silencers
I assume local politics is the reason, but I haven't taken the time to track down the arguments made in the legislature when the bills were being passed.
The Democrats in the US tend to cite law situations where enforcement cannot effectively find and track a shooting criminals because of the suppressor which lowers noise levels and the muzzle flash. Secondary arguments are that the suppressors are just one more gimmick to help gun manufacturers sell military weapons to the public. In other places, the primary objection seems to be that they are the tools of poachers.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5092 by Modulous, posted 10-05-2017 4:09 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5094 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2017 8:44 PM NoNukes has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 5112 of 5179 (821737)
10-11-2017 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 5111 by ringo
10-11-2017 3:12 PM


Re: silencers
"Because of the small number of silencers in actual use, it seems likely that banning and legalizing are both based on local politics."
It appears that legalizing at least has arrived as a national political issue. The Republicans want to pass laws that will repeal state law in 16 states.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5111 by ringo, posted 10-11-2017 3:12 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 5124 of 5179 (823361)
11-09-2017 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 5123 by Phat
11-09-2017 12:24 PM


Re: Texas This Time
But legislation is as usual up in the air.
No, it isn't up in the air. One party controls the legislative agenda, and their leadership has no intention of introducing anything.
We need consensus.
We have that already. Must gun owners are in favor of common sense control measures that would be an improvement over what we have. But that consensus will never be acted on.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5123 by Phat, posted 11-09-2017 12:24 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5125 by Phat, posted 11-09-2017 1:16 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 5128 by ringo, posted 11-10-2017 11:09 AM NoNukes has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 5129 of 5179 (823471)
11-10-2017 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 5128 by ringo
11-10-2017 11:09 AM


Re: Texas This Time
Sounds like an oxymoron to me. The most obvious common-sense measure is don't have guns.
That's fine. Then consider "common sense measures" to be US "code words" for doing background checks on all gun sales, not giving guns to folks who have mental illnesses that dispose them towards violence or who have already committed acts of domestic abuse.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5128 by ringo, posted 11-10-2017 11:09 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5131 by ringo, posted 11-13-2017 10:39 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 5132 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-13-2017 11:12 AM NoNukes has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 5133 of 5179 (823618)
11-14-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 5131 by ringo
11-13-2017 10:39 AM


Re: Texas This Time
In Canada we don't consider depriving the mentally ill of their constitutional rights to be "common sense".
Neither do I. Are you interpreting the US constitution as preventing the state from restricting access to guns by folks who are demonstrated to be violent under a process with the appropriate due process? If not, then what is your point?
Seriously Ringo, in one set of posts about gun control, you complain that folks in the US don't simply ignore their constitution, but in this recent post, you express the idea that Canada is a virtuous example of constitutional purity. One might think that you don't actually have an opinion of your own and simply like to argue.
Of course, I already knew that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5131 by ringo, posted 11-13-2017 10:39 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5135 by ringo, posted 11-14-2017 12:20 PM NoNukes has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 5134 of 5179 (823619)
11-14-2017 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 5132 by New Cat's Eye
11-13-2017 11:12 AM


Re: Texas This Time
With the exception of private gun sales, aren't those laws already on the books?
1. That is a pretty huge exception.
2. No, those laws are not all on the books at the federal level.
3. Those are just examples.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5132 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-13-2017 11:12 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5137 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-14-2017 4:09 PM NoNukes has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 5136 of 5179 (823621)
11-14-2017 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 5135 by ringo
11-14-2017 12:20 PM


Re: Texas This Time
I'm pointing out that that's how the US Constitution seems to be interpreted by the NRA and the Supreme Court.
1. The NRA is not part of the government.
2. Why don't you cite a relevant Supreme Court decision? I don't believe there are any such decisions, but as long as you are "pointing out" why don't you give me a pointer.
Any dope can have an opinion. It takes a little reflection and understanding to juggle two
Right. I am suggesting that you don't have either an opinion or an understanding. I'd like to see at least one of those in your post.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5135 by ringo, posted 11-14-2017 12:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5146 by ringo, posted 11-15-2017 2:17 PM NoNukes has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 5142 of 5179 (823672)
11-15-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 5141 by Diomedes
11-15-2017 9:48 AM


Re: Endless Mass Shootings
And finally, the USA also has this notion that it needs an armed populace in order to prevent a tyrannical government from taking over. This to me is the most nonsensical, anachronistic nonsense I can fathom.
Wanted to comment on this sentence. I think your post was dead on, but this notion is not nationwide. The idea that guns are needed to prevent a government takeover is held by a large number of Americans, but it simply isn't a mainstream idea. We should not push the impression that every single thing the NRA puts out is the majority opinion.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5141 by Diomedes, posted 11-15-2017 9:48 AM Diomedes has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 5144 of 5179 (823675)
11-15-2017 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 5143 by New Cat's Eye
11-15-2017 12:11 PM


Re: Endless Mass Shootings
I gotta pick this nit: the 2nd does NOT provide the right. It prevents the right from being infringed.
You say this despite having expressed the opinion that there are no natural rights and that your actual rights are not inalienable. So we know that this particular nitpicking is just an argument of convenience for you.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5143 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-15-2017 12:11 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5145 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-15-2017 1:34 PM NoNukes has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 5158 of 5179 (823719)
11-15-2017 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 5145 by New Cat's Eye
11-15-2017 1:34 PM


Re: Endless Mass Shootings
Piss off, there are natural rights.
Sure, when you want to argue about guns, then there are natural gun rights. At other times, apparently, there were not.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5145 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-15-2017 1:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5161 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-16-2017 10:36 AM NoNukes has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 5159 of 5179 (823720)
11-15-2017 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 5146 by ringo
11-15-2017 2:17 PM


Re: Texas This Time
Try any Supreme Court decision that interprets "a well regulated milita" as "every hillbilly with a trigger-finger".
It turns out, that your supposition about the state of US law is wrong.
Yes, it is true that DC v. Heller did say that the 2nd amendment bestows a personal right to others including hillbillies, but the same decision also held that states do have the right to pass and enforce gun control laws.
From the opinion in DC v Heller:
quote:
Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms
I'll note that the Supreme Court specifically mentioned laws targeting the mentally ill.
If you're suggesting that I don't have a doctrinaire pick-a-side-and-stick-to-it opinion, you're right.
I'm suggesting that a post of a BS opinion that you won't defend probably is not worth the paper it is printed on. In this case, it seems that you do have an opinion, which is a good thing. However, your opinion can easily be shown not to reflect reality. The Supreme Court has not, in fact, rendered any decision that make it impossible to prevent violently insane people from obtaining guns, provided due process is provided.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5146 by ringo, posted 11-15-2017 2:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5160 by Pressie, posted 11-16-2017 7:58 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 5163 by ringo, posted 11-16-2017 10:49 AM NoNukes has replied

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