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Author Topic:   Michael Servetus was burnt at the stake in Calvin's Geneva in 1553
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 75 (824055)
11-21-2017 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LamarkNewAge
11-21-2017 10:16 PM


This might explain why today's Trinitarians believe the way they do.
They have been forced and/or brainwashed by the Catholic and Protestant authorities.
Is it? As your example, you cite a 16th-century case of a person being burned as a heretic. Then you argue (assert, say, whatever) that you understand why Catholics and Protestants are Trinitarians today.
I want to direct my response to your argument rather than to you as a person. The problem with trying to do so is that the proper characterization of your argument would be a statement about your intelligence.
Instead of expressing my opinion, I am going to ask you if you have a better argument?
Did it even occur to you that the Trinity was generally unbiblical
Folks here have made that particular argument many times. Other folks have attempted to counter those arguments with cites to the Bible. Perhaps you should take a look in the archives.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-21-2017 10:16 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 12:07 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 75 (824098)
11-22-2017 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by LamarkNewAge
11-22-2017 12:07 PM


Re: Pay attention.
I was noticing that the vast majority of official "churches" have the exact same view that reflect what was imposed from 380 till AFTER THE REFORMATION of the 16th century.
You actually said something quite a bit more ridiculous than that. You said that people were brainwashed and you cited a 16th century burning at the stake as some kind of pattern. Why lie and claim that you did something else? We can all read your posts.
If you knew how to pay attention, then you would see that I (for starters) didn't say todays Bible was decisive (due to contradictory books from various sources).
Sigh. Here is what you did say.
Did it even occur to you that the Trinity was generally unbiblical
Answer. Yes, the question has been considered here and addressed on multiple occasions. Surely you are not trying to argue that the question of whether the Trinity is "generally unbiblical" is not a question on which the Bible is decisive.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 12:07 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 4:29 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 75 (824118)
11-22-2017 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by LamarkNewAge
11-22-2017 4:29 PM


Re: Pay attention. Again pay attention NoNukes.
I will not quote you, but will give a general response.
On the other hand, I quote you extensively when making my points about what you've put up here.
You failed to understand my IRREFUTABLE point.
LNA I read the nonsense you post. Apparently, you don't have an answer for any of my questions, so you fall back to the tactic of typing denials about what you have posted followed by declaring that you have won something.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 4:29 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 19 of 75 (824123)
11-22-2017 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by LamarkNewAge
11-22-2017 7:57 PM


Re: I found a NoNukes quote on the issue!
NoNukes says he never gave possible un-trinitarian views of Paul much thought.
Paul was not a Trinitarian. Believing in the deity of Christ is an essential part of Trinitarianism, but it is not the entire doctrine. In fact, even Arianism incorporates the belief that Jesus was the son of God. In my opinion, Paul had very little to say about the issue of Trinitarianism, but you are welcome to demonstrate otherwise.
My personal belief, one I have expressed here before is that the entire question about the Trinity is a non-issue because it is neither Biblical nor essential for salvation through Jesus Christ.
On the other hand, you seem to be somewhat confused. Perhaps I should have stayed out of this and let in become yet another LNA ranting space without opposition.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 7:57 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 10:15 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 25 of 75 (824141)
11-23-2017 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by LamarkNewAge
11-22-2017 10:15 PM


Re: NoNukes admits he was brainwashed! (but only old post shows it)
I proved that you never gave it much thought.
You admitted you were brainwashed (but won't admit it now, nor will you admit that I just proved it).
This reasoning is just plain idiotic. I said that I had not thought deeply about Paul's position, not my own position.
You were angry to find out that the Hillary campaign actually was part of a DNC scheme to manipulate the primary schedule (debates, state primary days, etc.)
Your suppositions do not make me angry. They let me know how much of a buffoon you are. I love pointing that stuff out. I also enjoy pointing out where you are lying. I never got around to attacking most of the details of your conspiracy theories. I did attack a couple of the wilder accusations as being without basis. You never responded to my points, you just went off on various tangents.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-22-2017 10:15 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-23-2017 8:10 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 27 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-23-2017 8:20 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 75 (824201)
11-24-2017 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by AdminPhat
11-23-2017 8:33 PM


Re: Stop And Read What You Write
Both of you better knock it off or I will shut this thread and suspend you.
I have no idea what you expect of me Phat.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by AdminPhat, posted 11-23-2017 8:33 PM AdminPhat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 75 (824202)
11-24-2017 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
11-24-2017 1:49 AM


Re: TOPIC IS THIS. (roughly anyway)
So your beef with NoNukes is that he likely has been brainwashed, or indoctrinated by the majority culture (as I have) and won't admit it....right?
That seems to be correct, and given that I am not a Trinitarian, his conclusion would seem to be well off base.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 11-24-2017 1:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 75 (824225)
11-25-2017 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by LamarkNewAge
11-24-2017 11:02 PM


Re: Paul (probably) did think Jesus was God (separate/split into 2 separate persons)
But will quote from a scholar who does not think Paul ever felt Jesus to be God.
I am not sure what you mean by this statement, but for me, the question is not whether Paul worships Jesus as a god, but whether he thinks Jesus is Yahweh either in a Trinitarian fashion or any other fashion.
In my opinion, some of the best arguments that Paul did not have this view come from a review of the Bible quotes that folks use to prove that Jesus is actually Yahweh. Invariably the arguments involve a stretching of text in ways it is hard to attribute to Paul and of course, there are plenty of counter-examples that are hard to explain except by departing from the entire exercise.
When all is said and done, the Trinity doctrine seems like an attempt to address accusations that Christianity is not monotheistic. I don't see any reason to bother with the doctrine if you don't have that concern.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-24-2017 11:02 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-25-2017 12:56 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 75 (824227)
11-25-2017 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by LamarkNewAge
11-25-2017 12:56 AM


Re: Paul (probably) did think Jesus was God (separate/split into 2 separate persons)
And Paul was an evolving mishmash.
I don't believe this to be correct, but you are welcome to try to show that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by LamarkNewAge, posted 11-25-2017 12:56 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 75 (824286)
11-26-2017 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
11-26-2017 4:42 AM


Re: (response to Phat post 31)
These beliefs dont seem right to me. Why do you like them?
Excellent question. It seems to me that we might ask at least three questions about early beliefs.
1) Are they Biblical? This question, of course, is not relevant for pre-Bible folks.
2) Were they held by pre-Bible Christians, and if so what was their origin.
3) Are they newer than either the Bible or those held by early Christians, and if so, why should any Christian accept them now?
In at least some cases, the settling out of beliefs occurred well after the Gospel is written and way too late for us to take for granted that those beliefs are correct. For at least those beliefs, question 3 raises serious issues in my opinion. I don't care how smart the 'experts' are.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 11-26-2017 4:42 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by PaulK, posted 11-26-2017 5:14 AM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 11-26-2017 6:40 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 75 (824323)
11-26-2017 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Phat
11-26-2017 6:40 AM


Re: LNA Response to Phat post 31
Respect the knowledge of other cultures. Don't assume that you or your culture or religion know it all or have the right truth.
I don't see much respect, but your mileage may vary.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Phat, posted 11-26-2017 6:40 AM Phat has not replied

  
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