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Author | Topic: The Marketing Of Christianity | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
dWise1 writes: Interesting. I'll have to think more about this premise.I assumed that belief was a choice, but now that you put it that way.... More generally in the case of many if not most ex-Christians, they started thinking and examining and found that they could no longer believe what they were supposed to. In case after case, they tried as hard as they could to continue to believe, but either you believe or you don't -- you cannot choose to believe.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
If you honestly knew that Christianity was false, i could see you having no choice but not to believe. My point is that there is no definite evidence and thus the conclusion is that you decided not to believe. Its not as if you had a solid 100% case for doing so. Remember that I reject Crashfrogs mantra: The Absence of Evidence is not the Evidence of Absence in my mind. Honestly.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: I'd love to hear your rationale for this one! I'm just saying there isn't enough evidence to make the case for God, etc. plausible. Bigfoot is more plausible than God but I don't believe he exists. Even leprechauns are more plausible than God.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I suppose in the strict definition of what plausibility means, I have no argument. Bigfoot could end up being a new species of animal. A Leprechaun could be some evolved rat. It does frustrate me to some degree how you see no need for God, however.
Besides, Aquinas took us on that route in reasoning for the existence of the universe.
quote: I would argue that it is more plausible to believe in an infinite God Creator rather than an infinite pilotless and self-creating universe. And I could care less about Hawkings take on it. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I'll admit to confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance. The more I study this stuff, the more I am convinced that it is not possible to prove. Thus we are left with the choice to believe or not to believe.
And a lot depends first on whether the individual wants or needs belief. A lot also depends on whether or not the belief is plausible. As for me, I need the belief. I need the hope. I need an eternal Father figure in my life. I cannot pretend that belief is an option for me...in my case. Perhaps it all is a part of my dysfunctional brain chemistry. Holding on to a probability...no matter how small of a number it is. Also, I enjoy defending the issues until someone pops the balloon and crows about there being no evidence and no chance. They wont take away my probability, however. I simply wont let go. And it angers me that they wont agree with my logic that there always will be a probability. (That God exists and that God relates to each of us individually) I have traditionally defended my belief as an internal certainty but can let go of that certainty as long as nobody attempts to snatch the probability.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Interesting that you two would bring gambling up. One of my own personal fallacies in that area is the fact that I take the truth statement: Somebody will win and switch its true implication into my own statement, namely I will win.
This latest round of EvC conversation has sparked my inner cognitive dissonance and is making me rash and erratic. Thankfully I have my meds. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Im still trying to figure out how logical people have concluded that the probability of a Creator of all seen and unseen is small.
Just because Hawking thinks the universe could spontaneously create itself out of nothing does not convince me.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
But nothing would convince you Phat. You just believe. I'm convinced that much of it is psychological. Believers tend to be made up of people who need and/or want and prefer to have a Father figure...a protector...a rich uncle....whereas non-believers couldn't wait to grow up and leave the nest. They are more adult thinking.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
There is a lesson in that scripture...I feel it...but having read it, all I see is that Jesus wanted his friends to agree with Him
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
well there is more to it than that, but i was in a hurry to get to work when I replied...what strikes me is that jesus never asks his father for anything special...He merely says if it be possible....but thats not how most people pray.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Yes,
Matthew 6:9-13 (NIV) writes: ’
9 This, then, is how you should pray: ‘Our Father in heaven,hallowed be your name, 10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. What gets me is the emphasis on Gods will being done rather than our own. Too many of Biblical Christians prayers are for God to grant us our will rather than for us to allow His. Thanks for refocusing my attention on this matter. For all of his swagger and bluster, RC Sproul doesn't focus on this...or does he? (Lemme check)drat! Yes he does, but he charges $2.00 just for me to listen to the lecture...so fuggedaboudit. You and I can discuss this stuff for free! The nerve! Ligonier writes: The Lord's Prayer series (all 10 lectures) $20.00 Edited by Phat, : added quote from Sprouls wallet Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
J.Vernon McGee discussed these prayers at length. (For free too, I might add! )
Let Us Pray: A Study of the Lord’s Prayer One thing that I noted is McGee's point about Jesus being unique in one regard:
quote: edited...found a rebuttal to my assertion Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
you caught me before I corrected myself after reading further. I got thrown off by something McGee said.
This whole idea of personal responsibility works for me to a point, but I am liberal enough to tend to want to ask for favor rather than simply allow Gods will to be done. Perhaps I dont trust that His Will is for me to have to struggle.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Now, which one is Right and which is Wrong?
And of course, you and I know that in our "Stile-framed" dialogues there is no absolute.
Morality (as I see it) is more about hurting or helping others. And you can choose to do either of those things while under either of the above positions. Of course.
Stile writes: It seems that one side values evidence above belief whereas the other side would count belief as equal to or a replacement of...evidence.
What about truth and reality and accurate descriptions of the universe?(...) The Atheist isn't defending another, specific concept... they're defending "whatever answer happens to seem more plausible with what we're able to see." That is, the Atheist would AGREE with the Christian, if everything we saw, felt, touched... led in the direction of what the Christian described. Because for me, the reality of the belief is everything. God simply must be true. No other answer will satisfy. For others, the quest for further evidence and further answers is the answer.
But there doesn't seem to ever be a way the Christian would agree with the Atheist. It MUST be the Christian's way... for one reason or another. But there's always some Atheists willing to accept that the Christian is right if things would only show that the Christian was, indeed, right. Good call. In general, Christians are less likely to give up their preferred answer than Atheists are to give up theirs.
And they'll change their mind, and follow wherever reality seems to lead. Are their Christians willing to do this?What Christian is willing to give up Christ, God, and everything about their religion in order to follow where reality seems to lead? I think that's the difference you're talking about. Some Atheists are willing to denounce atheism and fight for anything else at all as long as reality supports the position. Maybe it means they're not an Atheist... they don't really care. Again...speaking for myself, the particular answer that I defend...is the issue. For others, any answer will do if it is evidenced.
But... if a Christian is willing to denounce Christianity and fight for anything else at all as long as reality supports the position... are they really a "Christian" in the first place? Can you "not really care" if you're a Christian or not and still call yourself a Christian? It's about Believers vs. Reality-Followers. And many believers would defend their belief as reality despite lack of evidence.
It just so happens that, right now, the evidence seems to imply that Reality-Followers should be Non-Believers. Correct.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: All that atonement is is introspection. Prayer is only one way to achieve introspection. The "fall" itself is evidence of guilt. God doomed every subsequent generation of humans to atone for Adam and Eve's "sin". I suppose that no God is required, but I prefer talking with someone wiser and saner than myself. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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