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Author Topic:   R.C.Sprouls Teaching On Reformed Theology
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 175 (824651)
12-01-2017 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
12-01-2017 1:48 PM


Biblical Christianity and J.Vernon McGee
Another noted preacher was radio pastor j.Vernon McGee.
He produced a five year series called Through The Bible.
quote:
John Vernon McGee, Th.D., LL.D, was an ordained Presbyterian minister and later became the pastor of a non-denominational church, a Bible teacher, theologian, and was also a radio minister.
,Apparantly, McGee denounces Calvinism.
quote:
Dr. McGee calls Calvinism's Doctrine of Election a dangerous and frightful view of God. He also said, if he believed in this doctrine, he'd never attempted to preach the word of God and never try to lead anyone to Christ because there'd be no need of it.
With his folksy charm, he explains his position rather well in this video.
Dr. J. Vernon McGee Refutes Calvinism - Doctrine of Election and Free Will
Thus there are many flavors of Christianity, and I also reread that Episcopal Bishops statement. One question for you: Is Biblical Christianity, as defined by you, all about Calvinism and if not, what are the beliefs of Biblical Christianity that are in your opinion dishonest and/or worthless?
I always listened to McGee and found his explanations rather sound. His entire 5-year teaching series is also offered for free, which chalks up points that his organization was not simply selling something.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 12-01-2017 1:48 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 12-01-2017 5:19 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 175 (824688)
12-02-2017 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
12-01-2017 5:19 PM


McGee on Free Will and the Doctrine of Election
In Part 2, McGee explains his viewpoint much more humbly than RC Sproul does. And its interesting that you pointed out Sprouls arrogance...I would have never guessed that you would spot it before I would.
At the end of the day, this whole argument does come down to faith and not evidence. Faith, I want you to listen to McGee...he is a better example of someone worth listening to than either McArthur or RC Sproul.
When I say someone worth listening to, I am not saying that they have uncovered any more truth than any one of us. I am saying that they are more honest.(and humble)
Edited by Phat, : spelling

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 12-01-2017 5:19 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 12-02-2017 11:32 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 39 of 175 (824691)
12-02-2017 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
12-02-2017 11:32 AM


Phil Johnson
True. It all boils down to an individual character judgment. Even bad actors occasionally have good performances. Take Phil Johnson. Phil is John MacArthurs right-hand elder...and he often shows up at various debates/discussions with MacArthur. I disagree with what he says here:Why I Am a Calvinist, Part 1 but one little kernel of common sense caught my attention:
Phil Johnson writes:
With the rise of the Internet it’s easier than ever for self-taught lay people to engage in theological dialogue and debate through internet forums. I think that’s mostly good, and I encourage it. But the Internet makes it easy for like-minded but ignorant people to clump together and endlessly reinforce one another’s ignorance. And I fear that happens a lot.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 12-02-2017 11:32 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 12-02-2017 11:48 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 175 (824697)
12-02-2017 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
12-01-2017 5:19 PM


Its All Unexplained
I can agree with you regarding sorting information into an unexplained pile versus a miraculous confirming pile.
Faith, by its very nature, is unexplained in a scientific sense. It often is illogical and makes no sense. It can be accused of being willful ignorance or at best a fictional story. One of the reasons that I embrace McGee as a teacher is because he has read the bible and also because he refers to God as a living entity and a personal one...not a mere character in a book.
Now...concerning you, I have also studied your beliefs endlessly, and have embraced only a few of them as my own. The primary reason is that you throw away that which I hold necessary and sacred...namely a relational GOD. Granted you have a valid argument for why you believe as you do, and I realize that yours is a mature grown-up view...one which is honest.
Apart from your occasional arrogance, you seem to be a person whom I would feel comfortable knowing. McGee, in contrast, tells me what I want to hear...but he honestly seems only to be representing his position rather than attempting to gain converts. Granted he believes in the most modern idea of a Great Commission, but he has never thrown any of his personal beliefs away to discuss earlier Commissions in context.
The primary difference between you and McGee seems to center on the need to have a relational God. He, like I, seems to need it. He is quite a folksy charming guy, however. My beliefs are my responsibility, in the final analysis. No amount of finding a teacher who confirms what my itching ears want to hear will ever broaden my perspective, and you and Ringo always seem to push that certain button that makes me cringe.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 12-01-2017 5:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 12-02-2017 3:16 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 44 of 175 (824758)
12-03-2017 11:58 AM


Sproulagisms
RC Sproul has several teaching series which always get me to think.
One I am listening to now is called The Psychology of Atheism
Creating God In Mans Image
Suppressing The Truth

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 175 (824964)
12-05-2017 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
12-02-2017 3:16 PM


Questions & Answers From RC Sproul
I read some of RC Sprouls answers to basic questions asked by laymen and although they spurred me to think about the questions, none of the answers satisfied my current search for truth and reality. Critics claim that apologists make a lot of stuff up and twist scripture in order to satisfy answers, and i am afraid that these critics have a point. I will say that RC Sproul is thorough and methodical in his reasoning, apart from the fact that his answers assume things that I have not yet allowed myself to assume. Here are a few examples:
What are the characteristics of the Christian God that differentiate him from other gods?
There are so many different interpretations of what the Bible is saying. How do I know which one is right?
How does today's postmodernism affect the popular understanding of the atonement?
What do our good deeds have to do with our salvation?
As an example, look at the last question. Classical Apologetics, Sproul included, assume that God requires perfect obedience from us. Hence the need for Jesus Insurance. But I question whether God actually would require that. Even jar says that we will be judged based on what we do versus what we could have done, but perfection is never mentioned.
Sproul also portrays God as Holy. To me, this is, of course, a given assumption...but arguably not anything more than my belief. I mean...what if GOD was not entirely holy? What if He were "complete"? (Though I usually disagree with that assessment.)

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 12-02-2017 3:16 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 12-05-2017 5:26 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 47 of 175 (824968)
12-05-2017 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
12-05-2017 5:26 PM


Re: Questions & Answers From RC Sproul
I did! TULIP assumes a lot of things about GOD that I dont necessarily agree with anymore. I find myself questioning the origins of modern belief, even though I dont throw Jesus away. I have started questioning Who God actually is and am assuming that He would approve of me asking more questions and throwing out my prior assumptions.
add by EDIT: I think Sproul and others keep the doctrine around to lend credibility to their teaching...for if they threw it out, all that they would have would be opinions and not any link to historical Faith.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 12-05-2017 5:26 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 12-05-2017 5:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 50 of 175 (824989)
12-06-2017 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by jar
12-06-2017 9:48 AM


Re: origins
Not sure I agree. We can define probability, but strictly speaking, how does one define chance?What exactly is chance? Sproul would argue that chance in and of itself has no power. Chance is not a thing.
Or can anyone argue that chance is either a person, place, thing, or idea. And if it is an idea, what precisely is that idea? Are you suggesting that a Calvinistic God is not a god of chance but that GOD, if GOD exists is a God of chance?
Sproul argues, if I understand him correctly, that there is no such thing as a cosmic lottery. In reality, a lottery is determined by set probability. If we were to argue that the universe is also a universe of probability, someone or something had to set that probability.
The argument that chance in and of itself is a governing reality is likely what Sproul would argue against.
The argument being that God is not a random God who favors nothing and directs no one. Lets keep discussing this...I need to understand the implications.
Creation or chaos
Edited by Phat, : added link

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by jar, posted 12-06-2017 9:48 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2017 10:36 AM Phat has replied
 Message 59 by jar, posted 12-06-2017 12:12 PM Phat has replied
 Message 61 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2017 1:35 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 66 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2017 3:32 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 52 of 175 (824991)
12-06-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by PaulK
12-06-2017 10:36 AM


Re: origins
I know that you usually dont watch videos, but in that link I provided is Sprouls lecture. It made a lot of sense to me, and I think we are touching a nerve here. It may well be that I have always believed in the God of Calvinism and am only now being challenged by jar to consider a different God. And I'll tell you that if this is true, it will be difficult for me to change.
perhaps Faiths God of obvious evidence fits in here somewhere also.
And if scripture can defend one God over another, I'll use it.
To me, reality is not random and unfavoring....or at least it shouldnt be

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2017 10:36 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2017 10:54 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 54 of 175 (824995)
12-06-2017 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by PaulK
12-06-2017 10:54 AM


Re: origins
The lecture is Sprouls whole teaching on what chance is and is not. It made sense to me when I first heard it several years ago, and it really doesnt mention God at all...but it may well point out the differences between a God of order and a God of random chaos.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2017 10:54 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2017 11:18 AM Phat has replied
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 12-06-2017 2:23 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 56 of 175 (824998)
12-06-2017 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by PaulK
12-06-2017 11:18 AM


Re: origins
He does not mention anyone by name. His basic argument is that science is at its core a distinction between finer and finer degrees of taxonomy.
He derides the idea that creation happens due to time, space, and chance.
His argument is that creation has a definite purpose and objective, I think.
Let me say that his lecture is quite rational and persuasive. I wish I could have it in print so that we could break down his points and discuss them.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2017 11:18 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2017 11:53 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 58 of 175 (825003)
12-06-2017 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by PaulK
12-06-2017 11:53 AM


Teaching
When I listened to the lecture, I didnt sense an opponent. He briefly mentioned several scientists whom he had conversed with informally, and brought up the idea that he disagreed with them, but there was never any mention of an opponent to his position. He does discuss general revelation and the meaning of nature.
He would argue that the author of the Bible and the author of general revelation are one and the same. Essentially his argument appears to be a philosophical one.
There are arguable points, but I'll have to listen carefully to find them.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2017 11:53 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2017 12:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 63 of 175 (825022)
12-06-2017 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by ringo
12-06-2017 2:23 PM


Purposeful GOD versus Random Chaos
the shotgun is a negative analogy. I would rather have a God who favors me rather than a random God who simply wound us all up and then left us to do as we wilted...
Unfortunately, I cant deny that Sprouls theology is pure TULIP. I read his explanations and must say that I find myself disagreeing and challenging them.He tries to skate around Limited Atonement, and it only makes the issue more confusing.
jar writes:
What Calvinists market is that God favors them only and specifically, that Jesus death as atonement is not for everyone but Calvinists only, that God chose Calvinist only.
Remember the L in TULIP; Limited Atonement. It is perhaps the most vile form of Christianity I can imagine and goes directly against what the Bible claims Jesus taught.
RC Sproul, Essential Truths Of The Christian Faith writes:
1. Definite atonement replaces the term limited atonement in the acrostic
TULIP.
2. Definite atonement refers to the scope of God’s design for redemption
and the intent of the Cross.
3. All who are not universalists agree that Christ’s atonement is sufficient
for all, but effective only for those who believe.
4. Christ’s atonement was an actual propitiation for sin, not a potential or
conditional propitiation.
5. The Atonement in a broad sense is offered to all; in a narrow sense, it
is only offered to the elect.
6. John’s teaching that Christ died for the sins of the whole world means
that the elect are not limited to Israel but are found throughout the
world...
Its sad to see.
I would prefer a God who knows us, loves us, allows us to learn and grow yet is there to save me from my mistakes....a bit like my parents used to do.
I cannot deny that humans usually create the God that they want.
The trial that I am going through now is making peace with the GOD Who is.
Atheism is not an alternative for me. Nor is random chaos a comforting thought.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by ringo, posted 12-06-2017 2:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by ringo, posted 12-06-2017 3:19 PM Phat has replied
 Message 65 by jar, posted 12-06-2017 3:30 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 68 of 175 (825031)
12-06-2017 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
12-06-2017 3:30 PM


Re: Purposeful GOD versus Random Chaos
That video hits close to home.
Fairness has always been an issue with me.
I

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 12-06-2017 3:30 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 69 of 175 (825032)
12-06-2017 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by ringo
12-06-2017 3:19 PM


Re: Purposeful GOD versus Random Chaos
What you would rather have is not pertinent either to Sproul or to reality.
Not sure I agree.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ringo, posted 12-06-2017 3:19 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by ringo, posted 12-07-2017 10:44 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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