|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 66 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,483 Year: 3,740/9,624 Month: 611/974 Week: 224/276 Day: 64/34 Hour: 1/2 |
Thread ▼ Details |
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: The Tension of Faith | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: All a confirmed denier of miracles can say is that obviously John is crazy or he's lying. Or mistaken. That aside...
quote: Could have been anybody and probably was more than one. It certainly had an agenda for which a story involving miracles was helpful. When you can't even identify the author and establish him as an eye witness and find that the words are a concatonation of several people's ideas which have then been edited by anonymous others, you are left with zip as far as evidence goes. What you have is a story and a an extremely suspect one at that.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Faith writes: Blithering nonsense. I understand that you don't like the information, but either ignore it or provide a rational response. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
|
I'm wondering which is most lacking in persuasiveness, the one line shot to nothing or the 2,000 word, baseline return slug out over irrelevant, hair-splitting trivia.
Good grief. Or something like that. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Just barely over a thousand words, not bad. Definite improvement, I still skipped a bit, but maybe that's more me than you... I get bored very quickly with hair splitting word games that don't add value to anything.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
For what it's worth, I came across the term 'unused material' which is information not considered evidence by either side in a court trial. (Technically, it's stuff gathered by the prosecution that they don't need and/or can't use. If it could be of use to the defense the prosecution must make it known to them.)
The stuff we're talking about is just material, not evidence.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm. |
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: My argument is that belief requires no evidence and is theoretically possible. That's not an argument Phat, it's just another statement of belief.
The more people who share the belief, the more likely that the probability is not 0%. Right? Phat you're priceless :-)
Or am I committing a fallacy in my logic? Of course you are. Why would it matter how many people believed something? The history of our civilisation is absolutely stuffed full of things millions of people believed that were wrong. And the reverse is true too, many of our most influencial historic discoveries were made by a single person. You can name lots of them. Loads of people believed all sorts of things about disease before people like Pasteur came along. My mum still believes some of them. You can even include Jesus Christ in that list, was what he said any less or more true when only a dozen people believed in him? Truths about the world don't depend on how many people know about them. In the scientific world it's slightly different these days, things have got very complex and consensus among experts about things that can't be simply proven is important. The important thing is that data is shared and results can be tested and repeated - evidence based, not beliefs.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: However, the fact that someone wrote the Gospels with the intent of having them believed is evidence, no matter how weak or strong that evidence is. It's definately evidence that someone - we don't know who - wrote something. It's not evidence of a miracle. At best, it's evidence of a claim of a miracle. But it really doesn't matter, even if we agreed that it was evidence it's of no value whatsoever in supporting a claim that miracles happened. Which is the entire point of the discussion - despite the dozens of pages of faux erudite bullshit preceding.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: The style in which they are written gives no indication that the accounts are anything but historical. The beginning of Luke essentially states that the accounts are to be taken as historical. And the difference between your book and this book is....?
quote: Book of Mormon - WikipediaJe suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: The discussion is about what constitutes evidence. Well spotted :-)
The fact that the "Book of Morman" was written with the intent that it be accepted as non-fictional is evidence in itself. Yes, but the question is of what. We can both agree that it's evidence that someone wrote a book. In this case the evidence is far stronger than the the bible as we actually know who wrote it.
Is there sufficient evidence in itself, or is there sufficient collaborating evidence to cause me to believe it? No. The fact still remains however that it is evidence. It's evidence, we agree. We probably both agree that it's evidence of fraud. But the only thing we're interested in is whether what is written in it is true. You find the 'evidence' of the bible pursuasive but not the 'evidence, in the BoM. Now I accept that we know much more about how the BoM came about than the bible which has given us both reasonable cause for doubt - but they both claim to be true. You say that there is strong evidence for one but not for the other. The point is that we know more about the provenance of the BoM but trust it less than the bible even though they make similar claims. Now suppose the BoM was 1,000 years old and lacking our modern day evidence. I'm guessing you'd still not trust it. What is the difference between the 'evidence, that makes you dismiss one but not the other? Assuming the providence equal. Our point is that for something to be evidence, it has to be evidence of something specific and it has to be more than something outrageous written in a book. Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes: Religions are all the reults of mankind attempting to understand the nature of God and how that should impact our lives. You have this the wrong way around. Religions are the result of mankind attempting to understand nature. In primitive times they did this by inventing prime movers that could 'explain' everything. We need explanations, gods were the best we could do at the time - that's why we created so many of them. Thousands of them that do everything from creating weather to love and war. Then, of course, people worked out that they could derive power, wealth and influence by exploiting people's need for belief and religious empires were created. It's all quite simple really.
I know that you reject my conclusion but hopefully it answers your question. All you are able to do is repeat your belief, not explain why you maintain it against the evidence.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
GDR writes:
The very nature of a miracle is that it is not of the natural world and can't be tested scientifically.Percy writes: I just yesterday said pretty much the same thing to Faith, though I took more words to say it. This doesn't make much sense to me. Miracles can only happen in the natural world, because if they didn't we'd know nothing about them. Something that happens in the natural world can be observed and if it can be observed it can be tested by science. The transubstantiation of wine and bread into the body and blood of Christ at every Catholic mass is a claimed miracle. It's not a metaphor, it's claimed to be real. Science tells us that it's utter bullshit. As it's shown every other miraculous claim to be that has been able to be tested.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: But even if tests showed the wine did turn into blood literally it is still not evidence of a miracle. You're going to have to explain that.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes:
It explain that something that can't happen, did happen. That's what we call a miracle.
The point is that calling it a miracle explains nothing. All we would know is that tests showed the wine did turn into blood; not why or how it happened. No. What we would know is that a man can change the physical nature of wine just by talking at it. And we know that that is impossible. So it would be a testable, reproducable miracle, not just something we don't understand yet.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: So you claim. It's not a claim, it's a fact. Wine can not be changed into blood by somone talking at it. We know this, it's not a mystery.
But the evidence over time has shown that what is believed to be impossible is in fact possible. We now know that it is impossible to turn wine into blood just by talking at it. And we also know why. So if it actually did we'd know it was a miracle. It would still just be something we do not understand.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
|
Jar writes: Too funny. So all you are saying is that YOU decided to call something not understood a miracle. Don't be an arse. I saying quite specifically that turning wine into blood by talking at it is impossible. Tell me I'm wrong.
But I still cannot see any evidence that a miracle happened. That's because no one has ever turned wine into blood. Despite Catholics saying that it happens at every mass. But if it ever happened it would be a miracle.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024