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Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Executive Pay - Good Capitalism Bad Capitalism? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
RAZD writes: What if the owners are the workers? What if the shareholders are the workers? Then you have a cooperative. Cooperatives have been around for a long time, they work for some forms of business, notably trading organisations. They're a minor part of our economies partly because they are necessarily under capitalised. You can't create a biochemical industry on a co-op model, you can't get the capital. There's nothing stopping anyone creating co-ops, so why don't they?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18338 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
There's nothing stopping anyone creating co-ops, so why don't they? Because the wealthy hold most of the investment money. They are not going to enter into a business deal where they have to provide startup costs and then get a shared return that is less than what they initially spent. Unless they were just being nice.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... They're a minor part of our economies partly because they are necessarily under capitalised. ... There's nothing stopping anyone creating co-ops, so why don't they? Your biases are showing.
quote: Now that could be due to all the workers being committed to the success of the company instead of just the owner ... or it could be due to consumers supporting their community organizations instead of remote corporations ... Or it could be due to the co-op being a better model to realize the goal of the entity. Or it could be that workers are tired of oligarchic corporations. Several co-ops have risen from the ashes of a failed company. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Like the use of the word 'theft' earlier I don't think there's much mileage to be had trying to compare salaried employees to serfs wearing yokes etc, it's a cartoon view. And yet people are starving and living in poverty due to capitalism run amok. It's properly called hyperbole, where the argument is purposefully overstated to get people out of the shallow box they are in.
But also companies are a function of the societies they operate in - give a company an unregulated free reign and you get inequality; regulate pay, conditions and trade and you get fairer societies. Don't blame companies blame the societies the operate in. No, it's a function of how they operate within the social structure. Your "regulation" elements are historically temporary at best. As long as oligarchic sociopathic corporations exist they will keep trying to chip away at them.
Glass Steagall for example. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Because economics don't work that way. Sweat is cheap and easy to buy. Again with the elitist attitude to workers. They don't deserve anything because they are cheap? Doesn't apply to co-ops ... so not a truism. You're resorting to emotive caricatures here.
You're resorting to emotive caricatures again. ... Sometimes you need to get out of your shallow box thinking.
... Thers are many kinds of people with varying wealth And the wealth gap just keeps growing ...
Self-evidently wrong. Curiously, there are existing example of businesses operating and growing without investors, and I know of no company that operates with no workers. Again your thinking is biased. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
NoNukes writes: Profit is what is left after all payments are made. But isn't this really just leaning on definitions rather than policy? If the employees are paid a percentage of revenue minus non-employee costs, and profit is what is left over, how would that scheme be different from profit-sharing as far as the shareholders are concerned? It doesn't really matter how you play around with the numbers (ignoring taxation differences), you have to create a regime of out payments that result in a profitable company able to compete with other companies in the same market. If you pay your employees more than your competitor you either have to employ fewer people or raise your prices. Of course regulation can force an even playing field but this can make your country internationally uncompetitve and is not normally an act associated with a country like the USA.
Shareholders invest when the return is sufficient. If employees are also getting a cut, the shareholders might still invest as long as the shareholder's portion is high enough. Sure but shareholders can choose where to invest, a rational investor wouldn't invest in a company that paid its employees far more that the going rate and was therefore less profitable - all other things being equal.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Because the wealthy hold most of the investment money. They are not going to enter into a business deal where they have to provide startup costs and then get a shared return that is less than what they initially spent.Unless they were just being nice. Correct, now explain that to RAZ ;-)Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
RAZD writes: Your biases are showing. I think not, kettle, just facts. I see you'renot immune from your favourite confirmation bias. Coops are a minority part of your economy - about $658bn out of $19 trillion.
Now that could be due to all the workers being committed to the success of the company instead of just the owner ... or it could be due to consumers supporting their community organizations instead of remote corporations ... Or it could be due to the co-op being a better model to realize the goal of the entity. Or it could be that workers are tired of oligarchic corporations. Several co-ops have risen from the ashes of a failed company. Co-ops are ok, but given that the model has been around forever, you need to explain why they are still a minority part of modern economies. If thy're so obviously great, what's stopping them?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Tangle posits:
If you pay your employees more than your competitor you either have to employ fewer people or raise your prices. or maybe you could SELL MORE WIDGETS?- xongsmith, 5.7d
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
xonngsmith writes: or maybe you could SELL MORE WIDGETS? If you have higher costs than your competitors, how can you sell more widgets than them? They will always out compete you on price and eventually force you into unprofitability.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
It doesn't really matter how you play around with the numbers (ignoring taxation differences), you have to create a regime of out payments that result in a profitable company able to compete with other companies in the same market. If you pay your employees more than your competitor you either have to employ fewer people or raise your prices. False. Costco pays workers more, has the same prices as Walmart. What they don't have is the Waltons.
Sure but shareholders can choose where to invest, a rational investor wouldn't invest in a company that paid its employees far more that the going rate and was therefore less profitable - all other things being equal. Again, you are blinded by your preconceptions. Again Costco v Walmart proves you wrong. Co-ops go toe to toe with oligarchist companies in the marketplace and provide products at the same price while paying employees more, because they share. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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NosyNed Member Posts: 9003 From: Canada Joined:
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And exactly because of all that I have spent less than $10 in Walmart in the last 10 years and spend a few 1000 a year at Costco.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
RAZD writes: False. Costco pays workers more, has the same prices as Walmart. What they don't have is the Waltons. Co-ops go toe to toe with oligarchist companies in the marketplace and provide products at the same price while paying employees more, because they share. I'm afraid I know nothing about the relative economics of Costo and Walmart but the argument is moot. There are many examples of efficient and well run co-ops, but you have to deal with the general point of why they're only in a minority in our economies.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
Customer service.
If you have higher costs than your competitors, how can you sell more widgets than them?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9509 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ringo writes: Customer service. Customer service, branding, reputation, marketing, packaging, specialisation, distribution etc etc are all ways of diferentiating you service from others which is fine. But if your costs are higher than your competitors and he's doing the same you either take less profit or have higher prices.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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