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Author Topic:   Modern Democratic Socialized Capitalism is not Evil
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 6 of 43 (824731)
12-02-2017 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
12-02-2017 2:06 PM


RAZD writes:
The evil of oligarchies and the totalitarian tyrannical control by sociopath management is an inevitable end result of pure capitalism.
This is a pure rant. You've lost objectivity. Take a step back.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 12-02-2017 2:06 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 12-03-2017 9:13 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 9 of 43 (824761)
12-03-2017 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by RAZD
12-03-2017 9:13 AM


RAZD writes:
ignore it at your peril.
Wow, that could have come out of Faith's mouth.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 12-03-2017 9:13 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by RAZD, posted 12-03-2017 11:44 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 17 of 43 (824825)
12-04-2017 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by RAZD
12-03-2017 11:44 PM


RAZD writes:
Ignoring it here has given us today's republican congress that caters only to the rich (see new tax plan), and they in turn have given us Trump.
fwiw, I'm of the same opinion but less rabid about it - possibly because I don't have to live in the US and put up with it.
Your problem is that the solutions are there, you just have to vote for them or build them but seemingly the US voter doesn't want the sort of economy you want.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by RAZD, posted 12-03-2017 11:44 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Phat, posted 12-04-2017 11:08 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 27 of 43 (825008)
12-06-2017 12:42 PM


Well RAZ, you're still railing against the system, what you're not doing is explaining why it will change. Apart from a worker uprising of course.
The problem you have is that capitalism is an effective system and it's been rewarded by structural advantages in the form of taxation policies, ownership rights, investment and lending structures, business law and, particularly in your country, a cult of the individual and personal achievement.
Alternative methods of company formations are of course possible - the co-op being the most obvious - but despite the USA having the largest proportion of these, they're still a minority interest. Here in the UK co-ops are 0.7% of the economy and 75% or so are in retail, 15% or so is agriculture and sports and social clubs. Until the financial crash there was a relatively large chunk of money in mutual savings companies - our building societies - but they were almost all carpet bagged by real capitalists.
But here's the problem, most people with money to invest will wish to get all the benefits of their risk and investment, not share it out with others who didn't take the risk.
Co-ops were invented to help those who didn't have money to pool their limited resources and do more than they could individually, hence the mutuals and agricultural co-ops, but they don't have a huge cash fund at start unlike the more capitalist systems.
They also often have difficulty with decision making and investment making and are generally small scale and slow. There are of course exceptions - Mondragon is a good one.
The question to answer is why would an individual entrepreneur or venture cap company choose the structure of a co-op rather than a standard ltd company? In my opinion he'd mostly only do it if he can't raise finance, because if he can, he get to keep the gain. And why wouldn't you want to do that?
The key trick is to change human nature.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 39 of 43 (825991)
12-20-2017 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by RAZD
12-20-2017 9:56 AM


Re: Common Opportunity
RAZD writes:
Only because of sheer numbers. When they are compared on businesses in the same market the cooperatives do better. And they certainly are better work environments for the workers.
Can you provide evidence for those two statements?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by RAZD, posted 12-20-2017 9:56 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by RAZD, posted 12-20-2017 1:46 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 42 of 43 (826013)
12-20-2017 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by RAZD
12-20-2017 1:46 PM


Re: Common Opportunity
Phat writes:
These continue to grow and expand because they work, because they are better corporation models that give back to society rather than take take take.
The cooperatives reduce unemployment and improve their local economy via feedback from cooperatives to the society.
They exist because they are successful.
There are many individual examples of successful co-operatives, I provided you with the Mondragon one. Here in the UK one of our most successful retailers is a profit sharing co-op John Lewis, and the archaetypal co-operative is our Co-op - another retailer.
Individual instances of co-ops are interesting, but they are the exception - by a very long way. You have to show why you think that co-ops have a better business model than the demonstrably more successful limited company thay post dates them.
forms of enterprise, with twice the number of co-operatives (80%) surviving their first five years compared with other business ownership models (41%).[5] ...
This is terrible analysis. Co-ops generally populate specific markets, predominantly low margin, low skill, low tech area like agriculture - where there are exceptions they tend to be commoditised such as mutual banks and savings societies and retail groups. To compare them with the total market is just silly. How many co-ops are hi-tech and entrepreneurial for example? Business failure is a natural result of innovation - it's how evolution itself works.
Reading through these you will see that the best environments allow the individual worker to have input/say in how he participates, while the worst environments are dictatorial.
Whether this is true or simply your hope in this case is irrelevant because all these models exist in every company form. They are not restricted to co-ops.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by RAZD, posted 12-20-2017 1:46 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
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