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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1071 of 1540 (824780)
12-03-2017 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1070 by Tangle
12-03-2017 3:51 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
Tangle writes:
If the impossible happens we call it a miracle. As you know.
Still funny.
If it happened it is not impossible. YOU can call it a miracle if you want but I still see nothing that shows it was a miracle.
But whatever keeps you happy.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1070 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2017 3:51 PM Tangle has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1072 of 1540 (824781)
12-03-2017 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1069 by Phat
12-03-2017 3:48 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
Phat writes:
So in your mind, the only thing that is really possible is something that has a natural explanation.
Phat if it happens in the real world then it is certainly possible. We may not be able to explain it; we may believe it is a miracle, but that does not make it a miracle.
Miracles involve some supernatural intervention but I cannot think of anyway any supernatural intervention could be seen, determined or evidenced.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1069 by Phat, posted 12-03-2017 3:48 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1073 by Phat, posted 12-03-2017 5:02 PM jar has replied
 Message 1074 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2017 5:16 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1075 of 1540 (824794)
12-03-2017 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1073 by Phat
12-03-2017 5:02 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
Phat writes:
But what if the supernatural agent wanted to be seen?
Then I think the supernatural agent has a problem. If it can be seen and tested what would show it is supernatural?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1073 by Phat, posted 12-03-2017 5:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1076 of 1540 (824795)
12-03-2017 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1074 by Tangle
12-03-2017 5:16 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
Tangle writes:
A supernatural intervention - what you agree would be a miracle - must involve intervention in the natural world. Any supernatural intervention would create an observable event. A child could tell that a miracle is an event not explicable by natural or scientific laws and could give you an example of a dozen possibilities in a minute.
Fortunately I grew up and am no longer a child.
Yes, a child could do that; they are still children. But if something can be shown to have happened then it is not impossible.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1074 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2017 5:16 PM Tangle has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 1081 of 1540 (824883)
12-04-2017 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1080 by PaulK
12-04-2017 4:12 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
PaulK writes:
Percy writes:
The second opinion, the one advanced by David Hume, seems closer to Modulous's opinion
It’s the view that jar has been putting forward. The one that Faith can’t understand.
Almost. I use the same basic arguments as Hume relating to whether or not there can be evidence of miracles but Hume goes further and concludes that since evidence of divine intervention or miracles is impossible, one should dismiss and not believe in miracles.
My position is that we must follow Hume's reasoning related to the evidence for miracles but if we do believe in miracles (and I do believe in miracles) should admit that it is simply our personal belief and desire that miracles exist not not based on reason, logic, reality or evidence.
Edited by Admin, : Fix quote.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1080 by PaulK, posted 12-04-2017 4:12 PM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1092 by Faith, posted 12-05-2017 2:48 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1084 of 1540 (824912)
12-05-2017 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1083 by GDR
12-05-2017 1:50 AM


Re: the nature of evidence
GDR writes:
You mean like dark energy or dark matter?
Are you suggesting that Dark Energy and Dark Matter are supernatural?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1083 by GDR, posted 12-05-2017 1:50 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1087 by Phat, posted 12-05-2017 11:14 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1097 of 1540 (824954)
12-05-2017 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1092 by Faith
12-05-2017 2:48 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
Faith writes:
To deny the clear facts that distinguish a miracle from a normal event makes Hume's judgments nonsensical. Water does not normally turn to wine, great seas do not part and expose the dry ground beneath, corpses do not come back to life, lame people don't just up and walk and so on on and so forth. To ask for more evidence than the witnessing of such events by some number of people is ridiculous.
Yet you still have not provided any evidence of the supernatural and of course, every religion has their very own gen-u-wine miracles. Frankly, the so called miracles of the Bible don't even hold a candle to the miracles found in other true religions.
The claims of miracles found in the Bible stories are pretty much run of the mill rehashed tales found in other religions.
What makes them different than the miracle of a cobra spreading its hood to shade the Buddha?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1092 by Faith, posted 12-05-2017 2:48 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1098 by Faith, posted 12-05-2017 3:51 PM jar has replied
 Message 1109 by Faith, posted 12-06-2017 4:53 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1102 of 1540 (824962)
12-05-2017 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1098 by Faith
12-05-2017 3:51 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
Faith writes:
There really aren't any true miracles in other religions. I haven't seen a believable account of a miracle in any other religion. Just saying such and such happened is not very convincing. The way the miracles are reported in the Bible has depth and reality and human context in a way that makes them believable, and they are important events that violate physical laws, not something a fallen angel could make a cobra do..
Too funny.
You understand that is hardly evidence Faith, just more unsupported assertions.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1098 by Faith, posted 12-05-2017 3:51 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1118 of 1540 (825047)
12-06-2017 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1109 by Faith
12-06-2017 4:53 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
Again, you offer no evidence of any miracles. Please explain how the supernatural can be detected and tested.
Edited by jar, : there is no p in you

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1109 by Faith, posted 12-06-2017 4:53 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1128 of 1540 (825086)
12-07-2017 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1124 by Faith
12-07-2017 3:16 PM


The Bible is really poor quality evidence.
Sorry Faith but you continue to misrepresent the Bible.
The stories in the Bible, particularly the New Testament, are at best hearsay, reports by anonymous writers that are often contradictory where the tales of the events tend to evolve with every retelling. it is not evidence that could be admitted in any courtroom.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1124 by Faith, posted 12-07-2017 3:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1141 by Faith, posted 12-08-2017 11:40 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1129 of 1540 (825087)
12-07-2017 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1126 by Faith
12-07-2017 4:09 PM


converts.
Faith writes:
There have not been MILLIONS of converts to Islam or any other religion even over the long centuries, as there have been to Christianity.
That is a really stupid false assertion Faith.
Islam began with a group even smaller than Christianity and expanded rapidly to include most of the civilized world and over an area far larger than Christianity. It expanded by add new converts.
Buddhism began like Christianity with one teacher and students yet expanded by adding converts.
Those are facts Faith, not your fantasies.
If there are more than a million Muslims or a million Buddhists then once again reality shows you are wrong.
AbE:
An interesting aside is that there are currently about twice as many Muslims worldwide as Protestant Christians and many Protestant Christians are active opponents of teaching Biblical Inerrancy, Creationism, Young Earth and Special Creation.
It seems Faith does not represent a major religious force in the world.
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1126 by Faith, posted 12-07-2017 4:09 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1136 by Faith, posted 12-08-2017 11:07 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1133 of 1540 (825114)
12-08-2017 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1132 by Phat
12-08-2017 8:58 AM


Re: the nature of evidence
Phat writes:
In any case, science is not equipped to conclude anything.
Not quite. Science is based on conclusions. If every time in the past a given experiment gives the same results, science concludes that it is most likely that the next time that experiment is done it will still give the same results.
Science advances when we discover that a conclusion was wrong.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1132 by Phat, posted 12-08-2017 8:58 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1138 of 1540 (825125)
12-08-2017 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1136 by Faith
12-08-2017 11:07 AM


Re: converts.
Bullshit Faith, pure bullshit.
Nobody did convert at the point of the sword better than Christianity. They are and will always be the masters of Genocide. Nobody ever did it better.
And no, Gabe wasn't a demon but an angel sent by God because the Christians simply didn't get and most still don't get the message.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1136 by Faith, posted 12-08-2017 11:07 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1140 by Faith, posted 12-08-2017 11:37 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1145 of 1540 (825132)
12-08-2017 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1140 by Faith
12-08-2017 11:37 AM


Re: converts.
Faith writes:
Under Roman Catholicism a few European tribes were converted at swordpoint or by the conversion of the tribe's king, but it was very rare, not the standard operating procedure we see in Islam's history.
I don't doubt you have convinced yourself that that nonsense must be true.
Faith writes:
Everything about Islam contradicts Christianity. Gabriel was a demon because God would send no true angel to contradict His once and forever revelation.
So you keep asserting yet never provide anything but more unsupported assertions from utter nutjobs.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1140 by Faith, posted 12-08-2017 11:37 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1146 of 1540 (825133)
12-08-2017 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1141 by Faith
12-08-2017 11:40 AM


Re: The Bible is really poor quality evidence.
Faith writes:
None of the writers of the New Testament are "anonymous," all are identified in many ways. And orthodox Christianity does not recognize any contradictions, sorry, they're all the failure of careless readers to make the accurate connections.
So you keep claiming yet reality says you are wrong.
The Bible is filled with contradictions, falsehood and absurdities and Christian Apologists have simply made shit up because they know it is what will sell.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1141 by Faith, posted 12-08-2017 11:40 AM Faith has not replied

  
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