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Author Topic:   The Marketing Of Christianity
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 494 of 591 (824341)
11-27-2017 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 487 by dwise1
11-21-2017 10:30 AM


Re: Food For Thought
dWise1 writes:
More generally in the case of many if not most ex-Christians, they started thinking and examining and found that they could no longer believe what they were supposed to. In case after case, they tried as hard as they could to continue to believe, but either you believe or you don't -- you cannot choose to believe.
Interesting. I'll have to think more about this premise.I assumed that belief was a choice, but now that you put it that way....

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 487 by dwise1, posted 11-21-2017 10:30 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 495 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2017 11:26 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 496 by ringo, posted 11-27-2017 11:42 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 497 of 591 (824378)
11-27-2017 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 496 by ringo
11-27-2017 11:42 AM


Re: Food For Thought
If you honestly knew that Christianity was false, i could see you having no choice but not to believe. My point is that there is no definite evidence and thus the conclusion is that you decided not to believe. Its not as if you had a solid 100% case for doing so. Remember that I reject Crashfrogs mantra: The Absence of Evidence is not the Evidence of Absence in my mind. Honestly.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 496 by ringo, posted 11-27-2017 11:42 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 499 by ringo, posted 11-28-2017 10:49 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 501 of 591 (824427)
11-28-2017 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 499 by ringo
11-28-2017 10:49 AM


Re: Food For Thought
ringo writes:
I'm just saying there isn't enough evidence to make the case for God, etc. plausible. Bigfoot is more plausible than God but I don't believe he exists. Even leprechauns are more plausible than God.
I'd love to hear your rationale for this one!

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 499 by ringo, posted 11-28-2017 10:49 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 502 by jar, posted 11-28-2017 3:56 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 503 by ringo, posted 11-29-2017 2:07 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 504 of 591 (824480)
11-29-2017 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 503 by ringo
11-29-2017 2:07 PM


Re: Food For Thought
I suppose in the strict definition of what plausibility means, I have no argument. Bigfoot could end up being a new species of animal. A Leprechaun could be some evolved rat. It does frustrate me to some degree how you see no need for God, however.
Besides, Aquinas took us on that route in reasoning for the existence of the universe.
quote:
1. The universe exists.
2. It could not be the cause of itself.
3. It could not come from nothing.
4. It could not be an effect in an infinite series of causes and effects
I would argue that it is more plausible to believe in an infinite God Creator rather than an infinite pilotless and self-creating universe. And I could care less about Hawkings take on it.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 503 by ringo, posted 11-29-2017 2:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 505 by ringo, posted 11-29-2017 2:36 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 506 by Tangle, posted 11-29-2017 3:29 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 507 of 591 (824488)
11-29-2017 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 506 by Tangle
11-29-2017 3:29 PM


Re: Food For Thought
I'll admit to confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance. The more I study this stuff, the more I am convinced that it is not possible to prove. Thus we are left with the choice to believe or not to believe.
And a lot depends first on whether the individual wants or needs belief.
A lot also depends on whether or not the belief is plausible.
As for me, I need the belief. I need the hope. I need an eternal Father figure in my life. I cannot pretend that belief is an option for me...in my case.
Perhaps it all is a part of my dysfunctional brain chemistry. Holding on to a probability...no matter how small of a number it is.
Also, I enjoy defending the issues until someone pops the balloon and crows about there being no evidence and no chance.
They wont take away my probability, however. I simply wont let go.
And it angers me that they wont agree with my logic that there always will be a probability. (That God exists and that God relates to each of us individually)
I have traditionally defended my belief as an internal certainty but can let go of that certainty as long as nobody attempts to snatch the probability.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 506 by Tangle, posted 11-29-2017 3:29 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 508 by Tangle, posted 11-29-2017 6:07 PM Phat has replied
 Message 509 by ringo, posted 11-30-2017 10:55 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 511 of 591 (824552)
11-30-2017 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 510 by jar
11-30-2017 10:58 AM


Re: Food For Thought
Interesting that you two would bring gambling up. One of my own personal fallacies in that area is the fact that I take the truth statement: Somebody will win and switch its true implication into my own statement, namely I will win.
This latest round of EvC conversation has sparked my inner cognitive dissonance and is making me rash and erratic. Thankfully I have my meds.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by jar, posted 11-30-2017 10:58 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 512 by ringo, posted 11-30-2017 11:09 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 513 of 591 (824751)
12-03-2017 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 508 by Tangle
11-29-2017 6:07 PM


Re: Food For Thought
Im still trying to figure out how logical people have concluded that the probability of a Creator of all seen and unseen is small.
Just because Hawking thinks the universe could spontaneously create itself out of nothing does not convince me.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 508 by Tangle, posted 11-29-2017 6:07 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 514 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2017 11:32 AM Phat has replied
 Message 516 by ringo, posted 12-03-2017 1:31 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 515 of 591 (824757)
12-03-2017 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 514 by Tangle
12-03-2017 11:32 AM


Re: Food For Thought
But nothing would convince you Phat. You just believe.
I'm convinced that much of it is psychological. Believers tend to be made up of people who need and/or want and prefer to have a Father figure...a protector...a rich uncle....whereas non-believers couldn't wait to grow up and leave the nest. They are more adult thinking.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 514 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2017 11:32 AM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 517 by jar, posted 12-03-2017 3:23 PM Phat has replied
 Message 528 by Stile, posted 12-05-2017 10:43 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 518 of 591 (824783)
12-03-2017 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by jar
12-03-2017 3:23 PM


Re: Wrong Phat
There is a lesson in that scripture...I feel it...but having read it, all I see is that Jesus wanted his friends to agree with Him

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by jar, posted 12-03-2017 3:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 519 by jar, posted 12-03-2017 6:30 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 520 of 591 (824824)
12-04-2017 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 519 by jar
12-03-2017 6:30 PM


Re: Wrong Phat
well there is more to it than that, but i was in a hurry to get to work when I replied...what strikes me is that jesus never asks his father for anything special...He merely says if it be possible....but thats not how most people pray.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 519 by jar, posted 12-03-2017 6:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 521 by jar, posted 12-04-2017 6:44 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 522 of 591 (824833)
12-04-2017 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 521 by jar
12-04-2017 6:44 AM


The Reality Of The Lords Prayers
Yes,
Matthew 6:9-13 (NIV) writes:
9 This, then, is how you should pray:
‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.
What gets me is the emphasis on Gods will being done rather than our own. Too many of Biblical Christians prayers are for God to grant us our will rather than for us to allow His.
Thanks for refocusing my attention on this matter. For all of his swagger and bluster, RC Sproul doesn't focus on this...or does he? (Lemme check)
drat! Yes he does, but he charges $2.00 just for me to listen to the lecture...so fuggedaboudit. You and I can discuss this stuff for free! The nerve!
Ligonier writes:
The Lord's Prayer series (all 10 lectures) $20.00
Edited by Phat, : added quote from Sprouls wallet

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 521 by jar, posted 12-04-2017 6:44 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 523 by jar, posted 12-04-2017 10:10 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 524 of 591 (824845)
12-04-2017 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 523 by jar
12-04-2017 10:10 AM


Re: The Reality Of The Lords Prayers
J.Vernon McGee discussed these prayers at length. (For free too, I might add! )
Let Us Pray:
A Study of the Lord’s Prayer
One thing that I noted is McGee's point about Jesus being unique in one regard:
quote:
As we go into the study, we come first of all to the statement, Our Father. This was startling to the Old Testament saint, for as far as we know he never, under any conditions, called God Father in a personal way. It is true that Israel, as a nation, was called a son.
God commanded Moses to tell Pharaoh that Israel was His son and to let him go. That is repeated again in Deuteronomy. But you do not find individual Israelites calling God Father. He was the Father of the nation, of His people, but the individual was the son of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So they did not approach God as a father.
edited...found a rebuttal to my assertion
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by jar, posted 12-04-2017 10:10 AM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 525 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 11:03 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 526 of 591 (824848)
12-04-2017 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 525 by ringo
12-04-2017 11:03 AM


Re: The Reality Of The Lords Prayers
you caught me before I corrected myself after reading further. I got thrown off by something McGee said.
This whole idea of personal responsibility works for me to a point, but I am liberal enough to tend to want to ask for favor rather than simply allow Gods will to be done. Perhaps I dont trust that His Will is for me to have to struggle.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 525 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 11:03 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 527 by ringo, posted 12-04-2017 11:18 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 529 of 591 (824937)
12-05-2017 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 528 by Stile
12-05-2017 10:43 AM


Re: Believe vs. Non-Belief
Now, which one is Right and which is Wrong?
And of course, you and I know that in our "Stile-framed" dialogues there is no absolute.
Morality (as I see it) is more about hurting or helping others. And you can choose to do either of those things while under either of the above positions.
Of course.
Stile writes:
What about truth and reality and accurate descriptions of the universe?(...)
The Atheist isn't defending another, specific concept... they're defending "whatever answer happens to seem more plausible with what we're able to see."
It seems that one side values evidence above belief whereas the other side would count belief as equal to or a replacement of...evidence.
That is, the Atheist would AGREE with the Christian, if everything we saw, felt, touched... led in the direction of what the Christian described.
But there doesn't seem to ever be a way the Christian would agree with the Atheist. It MUST be the Christian's way... for one reason or another.
Because for me, the reality of the belief is everything. God simply must be true. No other answer will satisfy. For others, the quest for further evidence and further answers is the answer.
But there's always some Atheists willing to accept that the Christian is right if things would only show that the Christian was, indeed, right.
And they'll change their mind, and follow wherever reality seems to lead.
Are their Christians willing to do this?
What Christian is willing to give up Christ, God, and everything about their religion in order to follow where reality seems to lead?
I think that's the difference you're talking about.
Good call. In general, Christians are less likely to give up their preferred answer than Atheists are to give up theirs.
Some Atheists are willing to denounce atheism and fight for anything else at all as long as reality supports the position. Maybe it means they're not an Atheist... they don't really care.
But... if a Christian is willing to denounce Christianity and fight for anything else at all as long as reality supports the position... are they really a "Christian" in the first place? Can you "not really care" if you're a Christian or not and still call yourself a Christian?
Again...speaking for myself, the particular answer that I defend...is the issue. For others, any answer will do if it is evidenced.
It's about Believers vs. Reality-Followers.
And many believers would defend their belief as reality despite lack of evidence.
It just so happens that, right now, the evidence seems to imply that Reality-Followers should be Non-Believers.
Correct.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by Stile, posted 12-05-2017 10:43 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 530 by Stile, posted 12-05-2017 2:01 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 537 of 591 (826399)
12-30-2017 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 472 by ringo
07-07-2017 11:55 AM


Re: God Unplugged
ringo writes:
The "fall" itself is evidence of guilt. God doomed every subsequent generation of humans to atone for Adam and Eve's "sin".
All that atonement is is introspection. Prayer is only one way to achieve introspection.
I suppose that no God is required, but I prefer talking with someone wiser and saner than myself.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 472 by ringo, posted 07-07-2017 11:55 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 538 by ringo, posted 12-30-2017 11:15 AM Phat has replied

  
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