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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Faith
Member
Posts: 26703
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1111 of 1250 (825039)
12-06-2017 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1104 by Percy
12-06-2017 10:55 AM


Re: the nature of evidence
By the way, in my last post I did not say you were "misjudging the evidence." I said that your faith in your ability to tell the supernatural from the natural or the real from the fictional is misplaced. You have no such superpower, plus the existence of the supernatural has not been established.

As I said, telling the supernatural from the natural is no harder than telling when you are experiencing something while awake or dreaming. It takes no superpowers at all. Even you could do it.

"Not been established." How many times do I have to point out that you can't verify the existence of something that occurs once and leaves only the evidence of witnesses. Well, you COULD establish it by accepting that witness evidence, as Chrsitians do, but since you wont', no supernatural for you.

You know this in the same way that devout adherents of other religions know that their religion is the only true religion.

Actually no. They really do merely believe it because they are habituated to it, they really have no evidence for it at all, they just grew up in it, they've learned its rituals, but that's it. Sometimes demons may manifest in other religions but all thqt proves is the supernatural, not anything like Christianity's claim to be the revelation of God.

Christianity does have evidence and not only evidence for the miracles in the Bible, but evidence of a massively transformed western world which is knowable through good histories -- not today's revisionist antireligious crap. Comparing Christianity to the other religions is beyond ludicrous. Christianity IS the yeardstick by which all other religions SHOULD be judged, and it gives an explanation for all of them as the work of demons because of hte Fall; and ARE judged by Chrsitians, and this used to be the case even among unbelievers who live in Chrsitian countries. Too bad the revisionists have taken over the universities.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1104 by Percy, posted 12-06-2017 10:55 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1113 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2017 5:11 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1120 by Percy, posted 12-06-2017 9:00 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13367
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1112 of 1250 (825040)
12-06-2017 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1109 by Faith
12-06-2017 4:53 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
quote:

The evidence of the supernatural has in fact been given over and over here, it's the witness of the Bible

Which is obviously not good evidence and you have given no valid reason to think it is. And you donít intended to even try to do that. So whatís the point ? Making assertions that you canít back up is just a waste of everyoneís time.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1109 by Faith, posted 12-06-2017 4:53 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13367
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1113 of 1250 (825041)
12-06-2017 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1111 by Faith
12-06-2017 5:03 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
quote:

As I said, telling the supernatural from the natural is no harder than telling when you are experiencing something while awake or dreaming. It takes no superpowers at all. Even you could do it.

The fact that we get false reports of miracles and ďsuccessfulĒ mediums and the like suggests the opposite.

quote:

"Not been established." How many times do I have to point out that you can't verify the existence of something that occurs once and leaves only the evidence of witnesses. Well, you COULD establish it by accepting that witness evidence, as Chrsitians do, but since you wont', no supernatural for you.

If the only way to get ďevidenceĒ is to be deceived into accepting unreliable and likely false reports then it may well be because there are no real miracles.

quote:

Christianity does have evidence and not only evidnece for the miracles in the Bible, but evidence of a massively transformed world which is knowalbe through good histories -- not totday's revisionist antireligious crap

Given your record of bias and - to be generous - poor judgement why should we trust your opinion on which histories are good ?

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1111 by Faith, posted 12-06-2017 5:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1115 by Faith, posted 12-06-2017 5:20 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26703
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1114 of 1250 (825042)
12-06-2017 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1105 by Percy
12-06-2017 3:22 PM


Re: Nature of the supernatural
You say a lot here, but the main point seems to be that the term "supernatural" is misleading because it implies that the supernatural is not of this universe, when the reality is that it is very much part of this universe, just unmeasurable.

Something like that. It's not outside natura as the term implies, there is nothing outside nature except God Himself.

Miracles ARE physical, of course. There's a problem with talking about the supernatural in general which includes a lot of nonphysical realities, beings or entities anyway, that are nevertheless natural and not supernatural, because they are part of the the created order. It's just hard to get all this said clearly, and some of it is also just beyond our understanding.

But a miracle could occur where it can be measured and analyzed. There is nothing in the Bible prohibiting God from performing a miracle in a laboratory. I understand we should not test the Lord our God, but he could do it if it chose, right? And isn't that proscription just a bit too convenient?

God does not want you to know, He wants you to believe, and as Jesus said to Thomas, He wants you to believe the witnesses He has provided. He has no interest in proving anything to everybody, all the God haters and scoffers. There's enough evidence to persuade you if you had an honest desire to know these things. For we "walk by faith and not by sight." Make use of the actual evidence given, He's not going to give anything more.

ABE: What exactly would be accomplished by God's performing a miracle in a laboratory anyway? It's still a one-time event that would be evidenced only by witnesses. Photos? YOu think that would persuade anyone?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1105 by Percy, posted 12-06-2017 3:22 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1119 by Percy, posted 12-06-2017 7:16 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26703
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1115 of 1250 (825043)
12-06-2017 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1113 by PaulK
12-06-2017 5:11 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
I guess you just can't trust anything I say. Nothing I can do about that.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1113 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2017 5:11 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1116 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2017 5:27 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13367
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1116 of 1250 (825044)
12-06-2017 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1115 by Faith
12-06-2017 5:20 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
quote:

I guess you just can't trust anything I say. Nothing I can do about that.

You could learn good judgement and demonstrate it.

Or in the short term you could actually discuss the issues and provide real evidence.

But if you are going to go on trusting people who say things you like no matter how untrustworthy they are, and go on claiming to have ďgood evidenceĒ and ďgood argumentsĒ when you obviously donít - then of course your unsupported assertions arenít going to be believed. It is the only sane response.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1115 by Faith, posted 12-06-2017 5:20 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1117 by Faith, posted 12-06-2017 5:35 PM PaulK has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26703
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1117 of 1250 (825045)
12-06-2017 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1116 by PaulK
12-06-2017 5:27 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
Faith writes:

I guess you just can't trust anything I say. Nothing I can do about that.

You could learn good judgement and demonstrate it.

Or in the short term you could actually discuss the issues and provide real evidence.

But if you are going to go on trusting people who say things you like no matter how untrustworthy they are, and go on claiming to have ďgood evidenceĒ and ďgood argumentsĒ when you obviously donít - then of course your unsupported assertions arenít going to be believed. It is the only sane response.

Well, it IS the evidence, the only evidence there is, I have nothing else to offer you, and you accuse me of bad judgment etc. just because you don't like that fact and there is nothing I can do about that. It's all there is, sorry. It's been enough to persuade millions, but you and Percy can be holdouts if you like.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1116 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2017 5:27 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1121 by PaulK, posted 12-07-2017 12:25 AM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29758
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1118 of 1250 (825047)
12-06-2017 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1109 by Faith
12-06-2017 4:53 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
Again, you offer no evidence of any miracles. Please explain how the supernatural can be detected and tested.

Edited by jar, : there is no p in you


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios † † My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1109 by Faith, posted 12-06-2017 4:53 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 16298
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 1119 of 1250 (825048)
12-06-2017 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1114 by Faith
12-06-2017 5:18 PM


Re: Nature of the supernatural
Faith writes:

Something like that. It's not outside natura as the term implies, there is nothing outside nature except God Himself.

This introduces another nomenclature contradiction. According to you the supernatural actually resides within the universe, but God, who is also supernatural, lies outside the universe.

Miracles ARE physical, of course. There's a problem with talking about the supernatural in general which includes a lot of nonphysical realities, beings or entities anyway, that are nevertheless natural and not supernatural, because they are part of the the created order. It's just hard to get all this said clearly, and some of it is also just beyond our understanding.

You say things like this a lot, and oftentimes I don't respond to them, but I don't want you to lose track of my position, so let me say something this time. The one thing you just said that I think is honest was "some of it is also just beyond our understanding," and that understates it by a long shot. There's a reason that you also say "It's just hard to get all this said clearly," and that's because your beliefs are a mass of contradictions unsupported by anything resembling evidence in the normal sense of the word.

God does not want you to know, He wants you to believe,...

This is advice that you yourself should follow. You do not yourself believe without knowing. Rather, you believe because you think you know, and you think you know because you tell yourself evidence is what the Bible tells you so.

He has no interest in proving anything to everybody, all the God haters and scoffers.

After all your time here you still don't understand. Those who do not believe in your God are not haters or scoffers. For the most part they don't give your God a second thought. They no more hate or scoff at your God than they hate or scoff at Peter Pan or Sherlock Holmes, other characters they don't believe are real.

The resentment and antagonism that often arises in your threads is usually directed at you, and not for your religious beliefs, but for the way you treat people who don't believe the same as you, and for your attitudes of hate, for instance toward the LGBT. Jesus was all about love, and he didn't care what you were, whether prostitute, criminal or gay. Even if you're going to disapprove of homosexuality because of what the Bible says, you must also listen to 1 Peter 2:17 to "Honor all men."

There's enough evidence to persuade you if you had an honest desire to know these things.

That's Tinkerbell thinking. Incredibly you follow this by saying:

For we "walk by faith and not by sight."

I think you're very confused within your own mind. You keep alternating encouragements to have faith with assertions that evidence exists thereby eliminating the need for faith.

ABE: What exactly would be accomplished by God's performing a miracle in a laboratory anyway? It's still a one-time event that would be evidenced only by witnesses. Photos? You think that would persuade anyone?

Given that we have no idea of the nature of the miracle, how would anyone know what the laboratory setup would be? And where does it say in the Bible that miracles are one-time events? After the resurrection Jesus appeared to people over and over again. Were it to happen today he couldn't help but be recorded on multiple phones. As the song in the play goes, "Why'd you chose such a backward time and such a strange land?"

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1114 by Faith, posted 12-06-2017 5:18 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16298
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 1120 of 1250 (825053)
12-06-2017 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1111 by Faith
12-06-2017 5:03 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
As I said, telling the supernatural from the natural is no harder than telling when you are experiencing something while awake or dreaming. It takes no superpowers at all. Even you could do it.

Really. It's that easy. Like when Mary Magdalene gazed upon the resurrected Jesus and supposed him to be the gardener in John 20:14-15? And you say this as if you have a lot of experience recognizing the supernatural. Pardon me for, well, let's just say you're talking through your hat.

"Not been established." How many times do I have to point out that you can't verify the existence of something that occurs once and leaves only the evidence of witnesses. Well, you COULD establish it by accepting that witness evidence, as Chrsitians do, but since you wont', no supernatural for you.

This is, again, a Tinkerbell argument. Things that are real are real for everyone, not just for those who believe.

Actually no. They really do merely believe it because they are habituated to it, they really have no evidence for it at all, they just grew up in it, they've learned its rituals, but that's it. Sometimes demons may manifest in other religions but all thqt proves is the supernatural, not anything like Christianity's claim to be the revelation of God.

This is a paragraph full of nonsense and self-serving unsupported assertions. The reality is that Christians are as "habituated" to their religion as adherents to other religions are to theirs. They have the same kind of evidence you have. There is no evidence of demons. Christianity's claim to be the revelation of God is nothing more than a claim, let alone evidence of the Christian God, or any God or gods at all. You and all the other religionists of the world are merely doing whatever it is you have to do to fill a need that many (most?) people have for a higher purpose in life.

Your next paragraph just declares your beliefs without support. I'll comment on a few.

Christianity does have evidence and not only evidence for the miracles in the Bible,...

You have words in a book, not evidence, and true faith doesn't demand evidence.

Comparing Christianity to the other religions is beyond ludicrous.

What are you afraid of? That a comparison might reveal Christianity a religion like any other?

Christianity IS the yardstick by which all other religions SHOULD be judged,...

There are no yardsticks. How could there be any yardsticks since there are no rules for what makes a religion? You're really just cheering for your team, which has no effect on the action on the field.

...and it gives an explanation for all of them as the work of demons because of the Fall;...

You're getting deep into woo now.

...and ARE judged by Christians,...

I'm sure there are equally rigid adherents of other religions who judge Christianity.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1111 by Faith, posted 12-06-2017 5:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1147 by Faith, posted 12-08-2017 12:19 PM Percy has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13367
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1121 of 1250 (825059)
12-07-2017 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1117 by Faith
12-06-2017 5:35 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
quote:

Well, it IS the evidence, the only evidence there is, I have nothing else to offer you,

So? That doesnít make it good evidence. If that's all you have, if you canít answer the reasons why it is poor and inadequate evidence - and you certainly havenít - then that is your problem. Just insisting that it is good evidence despite that and blustering and bullying as you always do is neither honest nor productive.

quote:

...and you accuse me of bad judgment etc. just because you don't like that fact and there is nothing I can do about that

That is not even a sensible lie. I donít object to the fact that you donít have any other evidence - not at all. I accuse you of bad judgement because itís true - youíve proven it over and over again - and because you keep putting unsupported opinions forward as fact. Why should we believe the opinions of someone who is obviously grossly biased ? Someone who clearly isnít making any effort to get at the truth ?

You said not so long ago that you donít believe Alex Jones when he claims to have actually seen human-animal chimeras. But you will believe him when he makes equally wild claims - where he doesnít even claim to be a witness - whenever you like the idea. How can that be anything other than bad judgement ? Accepting the unevidenced word of a man who tells crazy lies ?

quote:

It's been enough to persuade millions, but you and Percy can be holdouts if you like.

Millions have been persuaded by religions you regard as false. According to the Revelation many people are supposed to be persuaded to worship the Beast. Aside from the fact that you give no credit to the persuasive efforts of the proselytisers - itself a big omission - thatís not a good argument. It doesnít say anything about the actual quality of the evidence.

Reality doesnít have to be the way you want it to be. We donít have to pretend that reality is the way you want it to be. We donít have to accept that your evidence is good evidence just because itís the only evidence you have. If you canít rationally answer the criticisms of you evidence then you lose. Too bad.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1117 by Faith, posted 12-06-2017 5:35 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1124 by Faith, posted 12-07-2017 3:16 PM PaulK has responded

    
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1122 of 1250 (825062)
12-07-2017 1:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1108 by Percy
12-06-2017 4:15 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
Percy writes:

Which one? The one described in Genesis, or the one we're already studying concerning how the Big Bang came about? If the former, how do you propose we study this scientifically? If the latter, what makes it a miracle?

The fact that the universe came into existence from essentially nothing,and from in that sentient life was able to evolve.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1108 by Percy, posted 12-06-2017 4:15 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1123 by Percy, posted 12-07-2017 10:31 AM GDR has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 16298
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 1123 of 1250 (825069)
12-07-2017 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1122 by GDR
12-07-2017 1:48 AM


Re: the nature of evidence
GDR writes:

The fact that the universe came into existence from essentially nothing,...

This is currently an area of active study. What came before the Big Bang isn't known. "Essentially nothing" is only one of the possibilities. No hint of any miracles has yet emerged from any observation or theoretical analysis. But they'll keep looking and thinking.

...and from in that sentient life was able to evolve.

Not the origin of life? Just the evolution of "sentient life," by which you must mean us? Well, okay. Where do you see the miracle? We're pretty much just like other mammals. Some have bigger, sharper teeth, some are faster, some have thicker fur, and some have bigger brains, like us. The evolution of our brains is an area of very active research.

When asked for a miracle to study you suggested "Creation" in your Message 1107, then when asked to be more specific you produced the two suggestions I considered above, and both are already areas of active research.

But you interpreted the request backwards. When I asked in Message 1106 if you had any miracles for us to study, it wasn't a request for suggestions for where to look for miracles. It was a request that you point us at an actual miracle that we already *know* (supposedly) is a miracle we can study. Here's a list of Religion's Top 10 Astonishing Miracles. This is just one man's opinion of the top 10 miracles, and feel free to select your own miracle for study from anywhere you like, but at least this list provides you a starting point.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1122 by GDR, posted 12-07-2017 1:48 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1130 by GDR, posted 12-07-2017 6:35 PM Percy has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26703
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1124 of 1250 (825082)
12-07-2017 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1121 by PaulK
12-07-2017 12:25 AM


Re: the nature of evidence
Well, it IS the evidence, the only evidence there is, I have nothing else to offer you,

So? That doesnít make it good evidence. If that's all you have,

The evidence available, all witness evidence, is quite sufficient, even, yes, good evidence. The witnesses are trustworthy to anyone able to make such judgments, and Jesus says so anyway.. Your judgment is seriously lacking, and of course that I cannot help.

if you canít answer the reasons why it is poor and inadequate evidence - and you certainly havenít - then that is your problem.

I don't have a problem at all because proving anything to you is impossible. Your reasons are just a lot of hot air out of a prejudiced mind. The manner of the writers of the NT and the quality of the witnesses are unimpeachable to anyone who can think clearly.

Just insisting that it is good evidence despite that and blustering and bullying as you always do is neither honest nor productive.

As I said, I'm sorry I have nothing more to offer. And your accusations don't amount to an argument.

Millions have been persuaded by religions you regard as false.

No, millions have NOT been "persuaded" by other religions. People are either born into them, or as in the case of the original "converts" to Islam, dissenters were murdered by Mohammed until those remaining were intimidated into accepting his demon-inspired religion. At first he couldn't get any followers at all, but the sword does work wonders. Only Christianity actually persuades, because of its inherent attractiveness and believability.

According to the Revelation many people are supposed to be persuaded to worship the Beast.

Well, that's easy. The Beast represents ordinary fallen human nature under the influence of demon "gods," it's the default position for those whose minds have been poisoned against the truth.

Aside from the fact that you give no credit to the persuasive efforts of the proselytisers - itself a big omission - thatís not a good argument. It doesnít say anything about the actual quality of the evidence.

The evidence is wonderful, a matter of appropriate facts in human context and besides, according to Christian theology, it is God who chooses anyway.

Reality doesnít have to be the way you want it to be.

Imagine that!

We donít have to pretend that reality is the way you want it to be.

I wouldn't dream of it!

We donít have to accept that your evidence is good evidence just because itís the only evidence you have.

It never occurred to me that you would.

If you canít rationally answer the criticisms of you evidence then you lose. Too bad.

Losing a debate at EvC is pretty much evidence in itself of being right.

The evidence is more than sufficient, and further evidence is that Christianity turned the western world from a demon-run superstitious nightmare that left newborn babies and the sick and elderly out to die from exposure, mistreated women and slaves among others, into a nearly rational compassionate civilization.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1121 by PaulK, posted 12-07-2017 12:25 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1125 by PaulK, posted 12-07-2017 3:55 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1128 by jar, posted 12-07-2017 4:49 PM Faith has responded
 Message 1149 by Percy, posted 12-08-2017 4:25 PM Faith has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13367
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 1125 of 1250 (825083)
12-07-2017 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1124 by Faith
12-07-2017 3:16 PM


Re: the nature of evidence
quote:

The evidence available, all witness evidence, is quite sufficient, even, yes, good evidence. The witnesses are trustworthy to anyone able to make such judgments, and Jesus says so anyway.. Your judgment is seriously lacking, and of course that I cannot help.

Just more assertions you canít support.

quote:

I don't have a problem at all because proving anything to you is impossible. Your reasons are just a lot of hot air out of a prejudiced mind. The manner of the writers of the NT and the quality of the witnesses are unimpeachable to anyone who can think clearly.

The usual dishonest bullying to try to cover up the fact that you donít have a case.

quote:

As I said, I'm sorry I have nothing more to offer. And your accusations don't amount to an argument.

Iíve made arguments. You havenít responded. You havenít even offered real arguments of your own.

quote:

No, millions have NOT been "persuaded" by other religions. People are either born into them, or as in the case of the original "converts" to Islam, dissenters were murdered by Mohammed until those remaining were intimidated into accepting his demon-inspired religion. At first he couldn't get any followers at all, but the sword does work wonders. Only Christianity actually persuades, because of its inherent attractiveness and believability.

What a silly lie. There are and have been converts to Islam - even in modern America - who werenít forced into it. Muhammad Ali wasnít forced into it, to mention just one famous name.

quote:

Well, that's easy. The Beast represents ordinary fallen human nature under the influence of demon "gods," it's the default position for those whose minds have been poisoned against the truth.

Well that explains you.

quote:

The evidence is wonderful, a matter of appropriate facts in human context and besides, according to Christian theology, it is God who chooses anyway.

You know if you actually thought about it you would see that this silly pretence only makes your religion look worse. At least with the argument that Faith is required you can be honest about the weakness of the evidence.

quote:

Losing a debate at EvC is pretty much evidence in itself of bring right.

No. Being defeated in rational argument is evidence that you are wrong.

quote:

The evidence is more than sufficient, and further evidence is that Christianity turned the western world from a demon-run superstitious nightmare that left newborn babies and the sick and elderly out to die from exposure, mistreated women and slaves among others, into a nearly rational compassionate civilization.

In reality the story is rather more mixed. The humanism of the Enlightenment did a lot. The increase in wealth and (eventually) living standards through industrialisation and exploitation of less developed peoples did, too.

Christians argued for slavery as well as against it. And for apartheid and Jim Crow laws. The witch hunts with their tortures and executions were a product of Christianity. Christianity helped foster anti-semitism, and persecution of the Jews.

But all that is a subject for another thread.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1124 by Faith, posted 12-07-2017 3:16 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 1126 by Faith, posted 12-07-2017 4:09 PM PaulK has responded

    
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