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Author Topic:   R.C.Sprouls Teaching On Reformed Theology
ringo
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Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 76 of 99 (825071)
12-07-2017 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
12-06-2017 4:01 PM


Re: Purposeful GOD versus Random Chaos
Phat writes:

ringo writes:

What you would rather have is not pertinent either to Sproul or to reality.


Not sure I agree.

Huh? How could your preference have any relation to Sproul's preference or my preference? How could your preference of ice cream be related to the topic?

I myself would "rather have" a God who comes when I call and otherwise leaves me alone - but if I don't get what I prefer, why should you?


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Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 77 of 99 (825074)
12-07-2017 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
12-07-2017 10:32 AM


The School Of Hard Knox
I read a good article about John Knox (1514-1572), Presbyterian with a sword~

It mentioned the power of religion in those days...the Roman Catholic Church in particular.

quote:
Many were angry with the Catholic church, which owned more than half the real estate and gathered an annual income of nearly 18 times that of the crown. Bishops and priests were often mere political appointments, and many never hid their immoral lives: the archbishop of St. Andrews, Cardinal Beaton, openly consorted with concubines and sired 10 children.

Of course, immorality has always been represented in religious men as much as it has in politics and any other profession. Knox was a fiery orator and reformer, and his life likely was forged by the struggle of his day. The struggle at that time was literally a matter of life or death.

quote:
In the early 1540s, Knox came under the influence of converted reformers, and under the preaching of Thomas Guilliame, he joined them. Knox then became a bodyguard for the fiery Protestant preacher George Wishart, who was speaking throughout Scotland.
In 1546, however, Beaton had Wishart arrested, tried, strangled, and burned. In response, a party of 16 Protestant nobles stormed the castle, assassinated Beaton, and mutilated his body. The castle was immediately put to siege by a fleet of French ships (Catholic France was an ally to Scotland)

And so on and so forth...It seems to me that the American Protestants of Calvinist persuasion have been seduced by money moreso than threatened with any loss of life. RC Sproul and others often host talks together to reaffirm unity and agree upon doctrine. The earlier reformers had a passion and zeal no doubt forged by the persecution which they suffered.

Some of us myself included have argued previously that persecution within Christianity was evidence that the cause was real. I mean, how many people would risk the loss of life, limb and property were they simply con artists?
Comments?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 13368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 78 of 99 (825076)
12-07-2017 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
12-07-2017 11:28 AM


Re: The School Of Hard Knox
Protestants in Catholic countries risked persecution, so did Catholics in Protestant countries. Fringe groups tended to be persecuted by the establishment everywhere.

So, who’s right ?


This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13968
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 79 of 99 (825078)
12-07-2017 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
12-07-2017 11:28 AM


Re: The School Of Hard Knox
Phat writes:

Some of us myself included have argued previously that persecution within Christianity was evidence that the cause was real.


The Rohingya Muslims in Myanmar are being persecuted by the Buddhist majority. So Islam is real and Buddhism is not?

Phat writes:

I mean, how many people would risk the loss of life, limb and property were they simply con artists?


Why do you always go to "con artists"? Can't people just be wrong?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-07-2017 11:28 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 80 of 99 (825080)
12-07-2017 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
12-07-2017 11:28 AM


Re: The School Of Hard Knox
Expand your reading sources. Knox was a radical terrorist.

Phat writes:

Some of us myself included have argued previously that persecution within Christianity was evidence that the cause was real.

That is another really really stupid argument.

Was the long march evidence that Mao's cause was just?

Was the Bolshevik revolution evidence that Lenin's cause was just?

Was the deaths of so many Cuban supporters of Castro evidence that his cause was just?

People often do wrong things.

People often die for dumb causes.

Protestants persecuted Roman Catholics.

Roman Catholics persecuted Protestants.

Protestant Parliamentarians persecuted Protestant Monarchists.

Protestants and Roman Catholics persecuted Jews and Muslims and Druid and Native American Indians and Mormons and anyone else that was handy.

And almost none of it had anything to do with religion but rather who controlled the power and wealth.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-07-2017 11:28 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 81 of 99 (825090)
12-07-2017 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
12-07-2017 1:15 PM


Institutes Of The Christian Religion
John Calvin wrote a book similar to Sprouls and of course he did it first. It likely is what Sproul based his book on:Institutes Of The Christian Religion

RC Sproul: Essential Truths Of The Christian Faith

As I compare and contrast both books side by side, I am struck with many similarities of belief.

First of all, Calvins arrogance was greater than Sprouls. To wit:

Institutes writes:

prefixed to the second edition, published at strasburg in 1539.
In the First Edition of this work, having no expectation of the success which God has, in his goodness, been pleased to give it, I had, for the greater part, performed my office perfunctorily, as is usual in trivial undertakings. But when I perceived that almost all the godly had received it with a favour which I had never dared to wish, far less to hope for, being sincerely conscious that I had received much more than I deserved, I thought I should be very ungrateful if I did not endeavour, at least according to my humble ability, to respond to the great kindness which had been expressed towards me, and which spontaneously urged me to diligence. I therefore ask no other favour from the studious for my new work than that which they have already bestowed upon me beyond my merits.
I feel so much obliged, that I shall be satisfied if I am thought not to have made a bad return for the gratitude I owe. This return I would have made much earlier, had not the Lord, for almost two whole years, exercised me in an extraordinary manner. But it is soon enough if well enough. I shall think it has appeared in good season when I perceive that it produces some fruit to the Church of God. I may add, that my object in this work was to prepare and train students of theology for the study of the Sacred Volume, so that they might both have an easy introduction to it, and be able to proceed in it, with unfaltering step, seeing I have endeavoured to give such a summary of religion in all its parts, and have digested it into such an order as may make it not difficult for any one, who is rightly acquainted with it, to ascertain both what he ought principally to look for in Scripture, and also to what head he ought to refer whatever is contained in it.
Having thus, as it were, paved the way, I shall not feel it necessary, in any Commentaries on Scripture which I may afterwards publish, to enter into long discussions of doctrines or dilate on common places, and will, therefore, always compress them. In this way the pious reader will be saved much trouble and weariness, provided he comes furnished with a knowledge of the present work as an essential prerequisite.

Basically, the whole doctrine of what we now call Calvinism was laid out in this book. Original Sin is there, Gods Sovereignty, all of the issues which we disagree with amongst each other at EvC in our religious debates...
One example here.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by jar, posted 12-07-2017 1:15 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 12-07-2017 8:34 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
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jar
Member
Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 82 of 99 (825091)
12-07-2017 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
12-07-2017 8:14 PM


Re: Institutes Of The Christian Religion
It might be worthwhile looking at four relatively contemporary examples; Calvin's Institutes and Luther's 95 Theses and The True Law of Free Monarchies; or, The Reciprocal and Mutual Duty Betwixt a Free King and His Natural Subjects of James I &VI and the works of John Locke which you already glanced over. These four seminal positions pretty much outlined the struggles for power in Europe over the next several hundred years or so.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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Faith
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Posts: 26711
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 83 of 99 (825181)
12-09-2017 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
12-07-2017 8:14 PM


Re: Institutes Of The Christian Religion
All Calvin formulated of Christian theology in his Institutes was the same tenets the other Reformers also spelled out in their doctrinal work, most clearly Luther. Calvin's style may be the main difference, so that he seems to describe some doctrines more emphatically than the others did. But the doctrine of Election is in the Bible and all of them recognized that, the doctrine of Predestination, all of it.

There has been a resurgence of Reformed teaching in the churches over the last couple of decades by the way, most of it from the Calvinist perspective, an increase in good clear sharp doctrinal preaching that replaces the earler mushier kinds of preaching in the churches. Many Reformed Seminaries have grown up during this time. John MacArthur has even described this as Revival and considers it the best thing to have happened to the Church in a long time.

Also I might mention that R C Sproul is being aired by my local Christian radio on the weekends with a series he did on all the various covenants in the Bible, if you're interested. Today's aired this morning and will be repeated again tonight at 9 PM Pacific time, on the internet too, at Pilgrim Radio.com

ABE: Found the Sproul covenant series at You Tube which is more accessible:

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 84 of 99 (825240)
12-10-2017 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
11-29-2017 10:53 AM


Is TULIP Biblical?
Faith writes:

But the doctrine of Election is in the Bible and all of them recognized that, the doctrine of Predestination, all of it.

Faith brings up a point. (Of course, you will say that people can and do use the Bible to support whatever philosophy, belief, or doctrine that they want.) But lets examine the scriptures of TULIP.

Sproul has his views on it, and much of what he says unabahedly backs it up as the preferred Theology within his club. TULIP and Reformed Theology: An Introduction

Now let me find the scriptures that they use to support the idea:

Total Depravity (Original Sin) Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 1:18–25; 3:9–23; 7:18; 1 John 1:8–10

Unconditional Election: Romans 8:28–39; Ephesians 1:3–14; 2:8; 2 Timothy 1:9, 10

Limited Atonement: John 6:37–39; 17:6–12; Romans 5:8–10; 1 John 4:9, 10; Revelation 5:9, 10

Irresistable Grace: John 10:3, 4; 11:38–46; Galatians 1:15; Revelation 22:17

All that the Theologians seemed they were trying to do was to attempt to understand and define God in light of scripture.

You cant honestly expect Theologians to critically examine the Bible and speak of a "god character" and base their doctrine on the idea that humans wrote, edited, and redacted the bible. It leaves them with no working definition for the God they believe exists.

Granted TULIP speaks of a God that I would prefer not to believe in...but after all, I need to have a frame of reference to conceptualize the God whom I believe actually is. And i dont really like the universalist idea of a God compiled from many varying belief systems either.

I trust that God Himself will ultimately guide me into understanding Him better...eventually.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 11-29-2017 10:53 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 12-10-2017 12:27 PM Phat has responded
 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 12-10-2017 12:42 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 85 of 99 (825241)
12-10-2017 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
12-10-2017 12:11 PM


Re: Is TULIP Biblical?
Sheesh Quote mining and proof texts.

Let's take stuff out of context because the rubes are too stupid to have actually read the Bible.

Phat writes:

You cant honestly expect Theologians to critically examine the Bible and speak of a "god character" and base their doctrine on the idea that humans wrote, edited, and redacted the bible. It leaves them with no working definition for the God they believe exists.

Actually I expect that as a very minimum requirement. What you describe is what a snake-oil salesman does.

Should we expect those who are marketing the product to be honest about what is says?

When it comes to religion should we settle for them selling the sizzle instead of the steak?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 86 of 99 (825242)
12-10-2017 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
12-10-2017 12:27 PM


Re: Is TULIP Biblical?
I agree that honesty is important. There needs to be a consensus on what God we are worshiping and which God we choose to market.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 12-10-2017 12:27 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 12-10-2017 3:23 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 87 of 99 (825244)
12-10-2017 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
12-10-2017 12:11 PM


Re: Is TULIP Biblical?
The first point is that - as we have seen - the Bible does not consistently support TULIP. Saying that TULIP is Biblical then is either of little value (if it means that the points are among the many conflicting ideas in the Bible) or requires more analysis then just quoting verses that support (or seem to support) the points.

quote:

You cant honestly expect Theologians to critically examine the Bible and speak of a "god character" and base their doctrine on the idea that humans wrote, edited, and redacted the bible. It leaves them with no working definition for the God they believe exists.

I don’t see why not - excepting quibbles. They should certainly care about the differing depictions of God in the Bible and recognise that in some cases God appears as a character in a story. And they should certainly care about the process by which the Bible came to us. That is how they should work out their ideas of God - that’s their job as theologians.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 12-10-2017 12:11 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10230
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 88 of 99 (825245)
12-10-2017 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by PaulK
12-10-2017 12:42 PM


Re: Is TULIP Biblical?
Good argument we have developing here!

jar writes:

Should we expect those who are marketing the product to be honest about what is says?
When it comes to religion should we settle for them selling the sizzle instead of the steak?

TULIP hardly seems like sizzle to me. If anything, it describes a God who is uncaring. So what if He has the power to do whatever He deems right? My point is that if we are to describe GOD at all, we should at least come to a consensus regarding the GOD who is rather than simply pointing out the characters of God created by earlier humans.

As believers, cant we at least start with the belief that GOD is? (apart from any human attempts at characterization?)

Next, are we in any sort of agreement that of the many characters of God described in the Bible, there is one who seems more likely?

PaulK writes:

They should certainly care about the differing depictions of God in the Bible and recognize that in some cases God appears as a character in a story. And they should certainly care about the process by which the Bible came to us. That is how they should work out their ideas of God - that is their job as theologians..

So we can agree that we are working out our ideas of a God we can agree on? Or are we gonna remain uncommitted and philosophical?

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by PaulK, posted 12-10-2017 12:42 PM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by PaulK, posted 12-10-2017 1:03 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 13368
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 89 of 99 (825246)
12-10-2017 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
12-10-2017 12:56 PM


Re: Is TULIP Biblical?
quote:

So we can agree that we are working out our ideas of a God we can agree on? Or are we gonna remain uncommitted and philosophical?

I’m not a theologian or even a Christian, so I’m not likely to agree with the conclusion. But i’m up for discussion about what the Bible says, and how to evaluate it.


This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 29763
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 90 of 99 (825256)
12-10-2017 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
12-10-2017 12:36 PM


Re: Is TULIP Biblical?
Phat writes:

There needs to be a consensus on what God we are worshiping and which God we choose to market.

Nonsense.

We need to throw God away.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

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