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Author | Topic: Is Calvinism a form of Gnostic Christianity? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Remember that God is represented inconsistently, contradictory, evolutionary and variably in scripture. There is no "God of Scripture" in the Bible. There are many different representations of God in the Bible; some nice, many vile, each the god the writer created as a part of a singular story. At least Calvin presented a complete idea of God. From what you say, there is no consensus nor agreement on who or what God is. Traditionally, Christians reconcile this inconsistency through the person of Jesus Christ. One side basically says that God Himself has clearly told us who He is through scripture. The other side challenges scripture and shows an inconsistency. Will there ever be consensus among anyone?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Phat writes: I'm still not sure what I believe among these competing options. It doesn't matter, both are inventions with no rational way of choosing between them. And from my point of view, both silly made up nonsense.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Yes, but your point of view has rejected all forms of unevidenced belief.
You have no fear betting on science, but science can only work with concepts that have presentable evidence. Science itself cant provide any comfort of itself being an answer. And what it all boils down to is faith in humanity. I'm not convinced humanity will ever save itself.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: This is how I was taught in the Christianity I embraced in my early thirties. here at EvC, we discussed an alternative...that nobody was damned, all were chosen, and that we would be weighed according to what we did versus what we could have done. (works) That's kinda close nearby in the general neighborhood. Try this position and see if you can see the difference. You will be judged on the full body of your life as well as the motives for your actions.If you do something to please God ... tough. God does not need you to please her. If you do stuff to earn a reward, whether the reward is popularity among peers or salvation or money or prestige ... tough. God says you had your reward and you get nothing more. If you praise God, worship Jesus, get Born Again ... tough. None of those have any value to God. If you become a Christian ... tough. Jesus was never a Christian yet he pleased God. If you do something because it needs to be done, it makes the world just a little better, it helps someone else, if you do it just because it was the right thing to do ... Hallelujah. You got it. You know what Jesus message really was. Remember, the Goats were all followers of Jesus; proto-Christians. Edited by jar, : appalin spallin and do left out
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
If you do something because it needs to be done, it makes the world just a little better, it helps someone else, if you do it just because it was the right thing to do ... Hallelujah. You got it. You know what Jesus message really was. But according to you, we already learned that message when we discovered the knowledge of right and wrong. Any old teacher could have shown us that. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: But according to you, we already learned that message when we discovered the knowledge of right and wrong. Any old teacher could have shown us that. Think. Is knowing what is the right thing to do the same as doing the right thing? AbE: Is doing the same thing as being judged? Edited by jar, : see AbE:
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Phat writes: Yes, but your point of view has rejected all forms of unevidenced belief. Well no, not exactly. I'm not a machine I have all human emotions within their required tolerances. So in almost all respects I'm as irrational as you, subject to the same biases and feelings. I'm just more aware of them that's all.
You have no fear betting on science, but science can only work with concepts that have presentable evidence. Science itself cant provide any comfort of itself being an answer. I'm not betting anything on science, I'm just living a life. I don't need comforts and don't even know what that means. Science is not a substitute belief in something, it's just a useful tool.
And what it all boils down to is faith in humanity. I'm not convinced humanity will ever save itself. Save itself from what? We are what we are, we have this life to live, what the generations ahead of us do is of no consequence to us - though of course we wish them well. I don't understand your whole mindset, you appear to have fabricated a concern, then invented a belief system to give comfort to it. Just rid yourself of the concern.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: But according to you, we already learned that message when we discovered the knowledge of right and wrong. Any old teacher could have shown us that. This seemed way too important to not take the time to expand on it. Humans are born with certain capabilities. For example, most kids are born with the capability of learning to see, to hear, to make sounds. Little kids seem to be born with an innate compassion and empathy and from a very early age will try to sooth or comfort others, feel sorrow when others are sorrowful, joyous when others are joyous. But humans need to learn how to use their capabilities. Phat's "Any old teacher could have shown us that." comment seems to reflect the same feelings that Naaman expressed when told to go wash in the crick over there. Yet reality is filled with examples of human inability to learn. Sure the message from Jesus is simple. But the Bible repeats it over and over and over and still most Christians and Jews don't get it. But wait, there's more. Hundreds of years before Jesus repeats the message the Buddha repeats the same message. The message is in Genesis; it is the great GIFT of learning how to tell right from wrong. But Christians instead turned the story in "The Fall". They just don't get it. The message is repeated in the Great Commandment. The message is repeated in Kings 5. The message is repeated in Matthew 25. The message is repeated bu Buddha. The message is repeated by Confucius. The message is repeated by Mencius. Many old teachers tried to show us that. But did we get it? A story with lots of woo-woo and great rewards and fields of milk and honey and "Let Mikey Try It!" simply is a far easier sale than "Go and do!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
It's about the journey, not the destination. We have to try to do what's right every step along the way, not just focus on "being saved" some day. And what it all boils down to is faith in humanity. I'm not convinced humanity will ever save itself. Your attitude reminds me of those movies where a bunch of people race headlong for some prize, leaving a trail of destruction behind them. The movie of your life should not be a special-effects extravaganza. It should be a travelogue, where you enjoy the scenery as you go along - and maybe even help that guy lying in the ditch who fell among thieves.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
The Cathars were called Manicheans by the Catholics.
Manichean page on Wikipedia.
quote: Part of the Cathar page.
quote: Here is a Brill book which quotes an orthodox document attacking the Cathars.
quote: The authors of the book then said.
quote: Now, the thread author's text.
quote: On the "knowledge" or gnosis issue. If one looks at the origins of the use then, I think it is instructive. The whole issue of secret knowledge seems to be traced to what was presented as Jesus' REAL teachings and (IMO) is a form OR type of authentic "apostolic" tradition. Call it "faith" in the actual teachings. It seems to have been something of a way of combating perceived corruption and perversion of Jesus' actual teachings. The Gospel of Thomas has Jesus telling people to go to James the Just for understanding of the proper or real teachings. It has to do with authentic religion. The Jewish Christianity teachings of Jesus and James. Manichean's came later and did seem to reject Jewish scriptures (it isn't clear if that was much the case with the Jewish-Christians who followed James and who had many anti-Old Testament views that would later be a major part of Gnosticism) as perversions and instead liked Paul. This whole Gnosis thing seems to have been simply a way of "knowing Jesus" and is more like "faith". Just an issue of what is the true teachings of the religion (in a world of deception).
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
LNA writes: Who gets to define what is and is not authentic? The Gospel of Thomas has Jesus telling people to go to James the Just for understanding of the proper or real teachings. It has to do with authentic religion. It is not a matter of going back in History. What is and is not authentic are being debated to this very day. In conclusion, there is no one teaching that can be labeled as authentic except in a personal sense of acceptance.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Phat writes: In conclusion, there is no one teaching that can be labeled as authentic except in a personal sense of acceptance. Change authentic to authoritative and you would be closer. Every version of every religion is authentic.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
quote: I think that the Jewish Christians don't have a voice today (or the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew, known as the "Gospel according to the Hebrews") so there is no debate. They were doing just (and the Hebrew Gospel of Matthew) fine until the time of the "Christian" Roman Empire, but now aren't around. There is no debate among "fundamentalists". We saw what happened to the Cathars. It seems that this group existed for perhaps 1000 years plus (though full-blown Manicheans were actually still around in the world back in the mid-13th century, or later, so they might have been a "recent" (in their time) chip off from Manichean teachings). Then they were slaughtered. I don't see today's Christianity as anything but the offshoot of the Roman Empire (and all of its offshoot governments and religions), and its only claim to being authentic TODAY amounts to little more than what is essentially winning - hands down - modern day popularity contests. For 1700 years, today's "Christianity" won the bloodsports (the loosers didn't want to fight in the battle frankly), now the issue seems to be a popularity contest.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Granted you are likely right. my question is why you are fascinated with the type of study (and googling) that you do. If modern Christianity is a watered down version of the original and if the original is likely extinct, what do you hope to learn and/or share with others regarding it all?
Do you consider yourself a Christian and...if so...which type?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2424 Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
I see it as a "conflict of interests" to take a stand on any modern religion.
The interest is find out whatever truth there is to be found out. I would give up if all we ever had, in terms of recovered documents, and knowledge, was what we presently have. There is still hope that we can find out more about the founders of what became Christianity. (and other religions too) There were a lot of peaceful versions of "Christianity", that had lots of good peaceful people, that were wiped out after the Roman Empire became "Christian". Let us hope we can find all the destroyed documents still. (including the Hebrew version of Matthew, which seemed to disturb the Roman Empire "Christians") (I find it amazing that any person can claim Christianity when the very documents and Gospels, that the religion was largely based on, were destroyed. Fundamentalists and all Christians should be very humble when so much of scripture is now - and has been for a very long time - totally missing. I know that MY OBSERVATIONS AND INTERPRETATION wasn't the reason for the "Christian" authorities destroying the documents in the first place, so my interpretation of the book burning and its implications for Christianity will be seen as misinterpreting and defeating the very purpose of the erasure in the first place. I think the absence of the important documents should render those wishing to style themselves "Christian" as jumping the gun. There just isn't enough information, despite what the preachers want people to think.)
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