Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,818 Year: 3,075/9,624 Month: 920/1,588 Week: 103/223 Day: 1/13 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is Calvinism a form of Gnostic Christianity?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 362 of 405 (745105)
12-18-2014 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by herebedragons
12-18-2014 10:52 PM


Re: What Calvin Said
I find it perfectly acceptable to admit we don't know or can't know some particular aspect about God, but Calvin's problem is, as you say, he does so after he paints himself into a corner. After he has piled up logical inconsistencies, that is when he declares that we dare not think too hard. He states that A=B and B=C, but A does NOT equal C - but don't actually think about that because it's not something you can understand. Just by the logic alone it is clear he has something terribly wrong.
But is that not the very basis of "Biblical Christianity"; the Commandment that "Thou shalt not think too much"? Is that not how they approach all theology; taking "proof texts" out of context to avoid the implications when the full dialog is considered; simply declaring that there are no discrepancies, contradictions and outright falsehoods in the Bible and ignoring what is actually written or accepting any excuse to explain away the issues, to deny the god character in the Bible is as evil as is written; declaring there is a constant and consistent theme and purpose to scripture or a "God of the Bible"?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by herebedragons, posted 12-18-2014 10:52 PM herebedragons has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 374 of 405 (745145)
12-19-2014 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by herebedragons
12-19-2014 8:43 AM


Re: Jacob and Esau
HBD writes:
NN writes:
Calvin rejects apriori that human judgment is applicable to God...
the unflattering view Calvin paints of God when we apply our own view of what's right.
This is a fair observation and criticism and certainly there are things about God to which we can never make sense of using human logic and judgement. But we CAN apply human logic and judgement to Calvin's theology, which is a human construct - a human system to explain God. Despite Faith's insistence that Calvin IS absolutely Biblical, theology is, at it's core, a human system.
But that position also rejects the direct teachings of the Bible that mankind has the same ability to judge morality as does God. That is shown by direct statement in Genesis 3 and demonstrated by the dialog found in Genesis 18:
quote:
17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.
23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.
So when Calvin claims that humans cannot understand or judge God's behavior in the area of morality then at best he is being willfully ignorant of what the Bible actually says.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by herebedragons, posted 12-19-2014 8:43 AM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-19-2014 11:43 AM jar has replied
 Message 380 by herebedragons, posted 12-20-2014 8:59 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 376 of 405 (745159)
12-19-2014 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by Dr Adequate
12-19-2014 11:43 AM


Re: Sodom
But that is not what the story says:
quote:
20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
So according to the story God does not know that there aren't fifty, or forty-five, or even ten good men in Sodom. That is the point of going to look and see what the real story is.
You can "presume" that God knows but what is actually written has God saying he does not know and so needs to go investigate.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-19-2014 11:43 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-19-2014 12:16 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 378 of 405 (745165)
12-19-2014 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 377 by Dr Adequate
12-19-2014 12:16 PM


Re: Sodom
Yes but that is still irrelevant. The lesson in Genesis 18 is that God is subject to some human understandable moral standards unlike the God of Calvin that is beyond morality as humans might understand. Calvin describes an amoral God whose actions are not subject to human moral standards.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-19-2014 12:16 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by NoNukes, posted 12-20-2014 1:29 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 381 of 405 (745225)
12-20-2014 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 380 by herebedragons
12-20-2014 8:59 AM


Re: Jacob and Esau
I agree that all of it is meant as a set up dialog and never meant to be taken as historical or fact.
And I meant Calvin's position.
But if you look at the verse you quoted it shows Abraham saying that God's character must surely be something similar to a human's and something humans can understand and so judge.
What we don't have is the authority or the perspective to be completely impartial, objective judges of morality, especially of God's morality.
But does God have the perspective to be completely impartial, objective judges of morality? Is there anything that supports such an assertion or is that extra-Biblical; another position that can be both supported and refuted by Biblical passages?
And yup, the concept of the Trinity certainly cannot be explained or understood.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by herebedragons, posted 12-20-2014 8:59 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 385 of 405 (825094)
12-07-2017 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by Phat
12-07-2017 8:10 PM


Re: Is God represented fairly in scripture?
Remember that God is represented inconsistently, contradictory, evolutionary and variably in scripture. There is no "God of Scripture" in the Bible. There are many different representation of God in the Bible; some nice, many vile, each the god the writer created as a part of a singular story.
Calvinism is simply marketing a picayune composite cartoon god combining all the worst traits to be found.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by Phat, posted 12-07-2017 8:10 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by Phat, posted 12-08-2017 8:52 AM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 394 of 405 (825112)
12-08-2017 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 390 by Phat
12-08-2017 8:46 AM


Re: The Whims Of God
Phat writes:
This is how I was taught in the Christianity I embraced in my early thirties. here at EvC, we discussed an alternative...that nobody was damned, all were chosen, and that we would be weighed according to what we did versus what we could have done. (works)
That's kinda close nearby in the general neighborhood.
Try this position and see if you can see the difference.
You will be judged on the full body of your life as well as the motives for your actions.
If you do something to please God ... tough. God does not need you to please her.
If you do stuff to earn a reward, whether the reward is popularity among peers or salvation or money or prestige ... tough. God says you had your reward and you get nothing more.
If you praise God, worship Jesus, get Born Again ... tough. None of those have any value to God.
If you become a Christian ... tough. Jesus was never a Christian yet he pleased God.
If you do something because it needs to be done, it makes the world just a little better, it helps someone else, if you do it just because it was the right thing to do ... Hallelujah. You got it. You know what Jesus message really was.
Remember, the Goats were all followers of Jesus; proto-Christians.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin and do left out

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by Phat, posted 12-08-2017 8:46 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 395 by Phat, posted 12-08-2017 9:05 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 396 of 405 (825115)
12-08-2017 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by Phat
12-08-2017 9:05 AM


Re: The Whims Of God
Phat writes:
But according to you, we already learned that message when we discovered the knowledge of right and wrong. Any old teacher could have shown us that.
Think.
Is knowing what is the right thing to do the same as doing the right thing?
AbE: Is doing the same thing as being judged?
Edited by jar, : see AbE:

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Phat, posted 12-08-2017 9:05 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 398 of 405 (825119)
12-08-2017 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 395 by Phat
12-08-2017 9:05 AM


On learning a lesson
Phat writes:
But according to you, we already learned that message when we discovered the knowledge of right and wrong. Any old teacher could have shown us that.
This seemed way too important to not take the time to expand on it.
Humans are born with certain capabilities. For example, most kids are born with the capability of learning to see, to hear, to make sounds. Little kids seem to be born with an innate compassion and empathy and from a very early age will try to sooth or comfort others, feel sorrow when others are sorrowful, joyous when others are joyous.
But humans need to learn how to use their capabilities.
Phat's "Any old teacher could have shown us that." comment seems to reflect the same feelings that Naaman expressed when told to go wash in the crick over there.
Yet reality is filled with examples of human inability to learn.
Sure the message from Jesus is simple. But the Bible repeats it over and over and over and still most Christians and Jews don't get it.
But wait, there's more.
Hundreds of years before Jesus repeats the message the Buddha repeats the same message.
The message is in Genesis; it is the great GIFT of learning how to tell right from wrong. But Christians instead turned the story in "The Fall". They just don't get it.
The message is repeated in the Great Commandment.
The message is repeated in Kings 5.
The message is repeated in Matthew 25.
The message is repeated bu Buddha.
The message is repeated by Confucius.
The message is repeated by Mencius.
Many old teachers tried to show us that. But did we get it?
A story with lots of woo-woo and great rewards and fields of milk and honey and "Let Mikey Try It!" simply is a far easier sale than "Go and do!"

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by Phat, posted 12-08-2017 9:05 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 402 of 405 (825816)
12-18-2017 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 401 by Phat
12-18-2017 9:37 AM


Re: The Cathars are a more precise modern example of Manicherans and Gnostics.
Phat writes:
In conclusion, there is no one teaching that can be labeled as authentic except in a personal sense of acceptance.
Change authentic to authoritative and you would be closer. Every version of every religion is authentic.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by Phat, posted 12-18-2017 9:37 AM Phat has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024