The Tension of Faith

I gotta ask... demons and spiritual manifestations are not supernatural things? Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

My goodness, more caps. There's been no disagreement on the definition of miracle. You're making stuff up again. Revelation 16:14 is pretty clear: "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles,..." You're the only one who's confused. Nobody's been arguing for a different definition of miracle. You don't quote anything, so I can't guess where your misimpression is coming from. I wasn't arguing Jesus was an apparition, and once again you quote nothing, so I can't guess where your misimpression is coming from. Well, yes, it does get pretty tedious, and you are the villain. No quoting of what you're replying to, constantly resorting to all caps, baseless assertions, contradictions, confusions, it goes on and on. Oh, I can't believe it, you're doing it again, declaring that you're abandoning discussion. You little liar you.Everything you say above is invented out of your own imagination and has nothing to do with anything I actually said, which you apparently had no intention of replying to, so no wonder you didn't quote anything. The main points again:

• You've had only a single supernatural experience, yet claim to know how easy it is to recognize the supernatural when you see it. You're obviously blowing smoke.
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• The miracle of Jesus' being resurrected was not recognized by either Mary Magdalene or the two disciples. They didn't even recognize him as Jesus. So much for it being easy to recognize a miracle.
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• The supernatural cannot be part of the natural. You can't redefine the English language.
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• About only God being able to perform miracles, Revelation 16:14 says, "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles,..." Billy Graham taught that angels could do miracles: "Much of what they [angels] do could be labeled as miracles." (Does God still do miracles) Bible Hub says, "It would seem that the angels can work miracles." (Whether Angels Can Work Miracles?)

--PercyEdited by Percy, : Clarify poorly written paragraph that appears just before the list section.

What happens a lot is that you disparage those you disagree with. The one showing all the signs of seduction by Satan is you. Of course, not to worry, he's fictional. No kidding! Gee, how is it that everyone but you can see a clear difference between the God of the Old and New Testaments? Glad you're finally on board. When will we be able to tell that you've started following a God of love? For example, tell us of your love for the LGBT folks, and of those obtaining abortions, and of those who follow Islam. What happened to the God of love?--Percy

You once again quote nothing, so I have no idea what you're replying to or what you're on about. Nope, sorry, I haven't been pretending or implying and certainly not saying any such thing. The question is about why you keep claiming to know things you couldn't possibly know, namely how to recognize the supernatural from the natural. The supernatural doesn't even exist, yet you claim to know it when you see it. Apparitions don't even exist in the Bible, let alone the real world. I think you've lost your bearings in the discussion. Well I guess you're not feeling the effects of that God of love yet.--Percy

I've been asking the same question. Faith claims that the supernatural is actually just part of the natural world, but after that it gets very confusing. I haven't received any answers I can make sense of.--Percy

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You love to bring up ancient discussions without quoting me, I guess because you love to leave lies in the minds of the lurkers perhaps?

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Ah Faith. How you love making false accusations. And how you love to call the truth lies. And how you love to divert from points you can’t answer with manufactured outrage. And just for that I will produce a quote - if you have any decency you will apologise.

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Chiniquy was an honest man, I couldn't have said anything else about him.

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Chiniquy was at best a narcissistic fantasist and it clearly shows in his writing. Obviously his writing is less than entirely trustworthy. But you won’t say that.Instead you said: Message 138Which is pretty funny when you consider Chiniquy’s inventions and errors (discussed in the thread)

Making fine distinctions is a lost cause at EvC but now that I stupidly started it unfortunately it's necessary to follow up."Supernatural" is conventionally used to refer to anything outside the normal range of events, so conventionally it refers to demons and angels and their doings as well as to miracles.BUT STRICTLY SPEAKING ONLY GOD IS TRULY SUPERNATURAL, because God is uncreated while angels and demons are created beings which places them in the natural order. Since we casually use the term "supernatural" to include them, we can use it that way here as well, but it helps to keep the differences in mind since they've already come up.Is that really so difficult to follow?As for miracles, the conversation began with the miracles performed by Jesus to demonstrate His deity and power and authority, plus those in the Old Testament performed by God to demonstrate His reality and power as THE ONE AND ONLY CREATOR GOD.LATER someone introduced that website with all the strange manifestations such as Marian apparitions and weird phenomena (bloody eyes) that calls those things "miracles." But they are not the same order of miracle as the ones performed by God so I pointed out that fact. They appear to be the sort of thing done by Hindu gurus involving demonic powers, having nothing to do with God.So I pointed that out too, and defined those done by God as the suspension of physical laws which I believe holds up. These other kinds of miracles are a different order of "supernatural" event, using "supernatural" in the conventional sense described above.I realize such distinctions are very taxing to the EvC brain, but I have tried to clarify this in many messages already, so do try to get it. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

I find Chiniquy's book to be completely trustworthy.

Well, Percy, you've now descended to that level of personal insult that led me to ignore your messages on some other thread not too long ago. You deserve to be suspended for a month at least but unfortunately I'm not in a position to do that. But I can ignore you.

Faith, people stopped believing your claims of offense long ago. If you have answers to the issues I raised then you should be responding to them in this thread. If you have moderation complaints then you should take them to the Report Discussion Problems Here 4.0 thread.Percy

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I find Chiniquy's book to be completely trustworthy.

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Which proves my point. So what was your basis for causing me of lying ?To return to the point you are dodging. That you say you consider a writing trustworthy is worthless.In neither case do you offer anything that can be said to go beyond unsupported opinion - a weak basis for the complete trust you ask for. I don’t think I would fully believe anyone who said that - even if I was completely unfamiliar with the work.When I am familiar with the work and I know of good reasons to think otherwise - which you fail to address - and when you’ve said something similar about a work which has been shown to be untrustworthy - why should I believe you ? Why should anyone believe you ?Think about that.

That’s just a restatement of your opinion, not a meaningful response. All caps, one line responses, castigations, threats to end discussion and then still discussing, all the typical signs of an impending Faith implosion.Come on, Faith, discuss in good faith, you can do it.Percy

Yes, it is near impossible to follow. It is simply another example of you making up new definitions instead of either excepted nomenclature, what reality shows or what has ever been supported by evidence.Demons are not natural critters. The natural order is not simply anything created. And if if that were the case there is no evidence that either demons or spirits or ghoolies and ghosties and long-leggedy beasties and things that go bump in the night exist either. Again, have you ever actually read the Bible?In it there are stories of the God character using miracles to show off but also references to other Gods also using miracles to show off. But it is not to demonstrate that he is the one and only God but rather that he is one bad ass God and the God of the Hebrews. In addition, in most such cases the God character in the story comes of as an evil, despicable, irrational bully at best.But in the stories it is the author of John that makes the claim that Jesus performed miracles to demonstrate deity while Jesus is actually quoted as performing miracles mostly because something needed doing or in one story more as a joke than anything else.But that is still not any stronger evidence that any miracles happened then any other such account including the cobra providing shade for the Buddha or the iron ring embedded in the elephants leg breaking apart when touched by the child Buddha.In both cases, Natural Laws were suspended. The cobra did not behave naturally and iron rings that are on an elephants leg so long they became embedded in the flesh do not naturally shatter when touched by a child.

I've done my best to explain the distinctions I've made that seem to be confusing everyone, and if they still aren't clear I can't improve on it. Perhaps the topic is more complex than I appreciate. It seems very simple to me but then I've read up on these things for years. But most of it is based on the Bible. God is uncreated, that's clear from the Bible, and everything else was created by Him. That's why the term "supernatural" meaning above or outside nature, describes God but nothing else -- strictly speaking that is, because we do speak of demons and angels as supernatural just because they are outside the PHYSICAL universe.I also don't understand why there is a problem with the concept of a miracle. Again there is a casual or conventional way to use the word and a strict way to use it. The conversation started with the strict uses of it to identify the miracles done by God in the Old testament and God the Son in the New Testament, the kinds of miracles that only God could do, that is why they are considered to be evidence for the God of Israel as the one and only Creator God.I think the definition of that kind of miracle as suspending the laws of physics is what identifies them as something only God could do because He created the laws of physics. Created beings can manipulate the laws of physics but can't totally violate or suspend them. I'm surprised anyone would think they could.I talked to quite a few people about their personal experiences of supernatural things, during that period before I'd become a Christian when I was having strange things occur of a supernatural sort (but only one experience of anything like the visible apparition in my room.) People described things like feeling a hand reach out and pull them back from an onrushing car when there was nobody there, someone reported seeing his doppelganger sitting in the passenger seat of his car while he was driving, someone else reported the inexplicable transporting of an object from one location to another. Another saw her hand become a dragon's claw in Zen meditation, totally freaked her out and ran to her roshi who assured her it was quite normal and would eventually fade away, though it lasted quite some time, hours I think. I was amazed that so many people had had such odd experiences and I know I'd never have heard about them if I hadn't had some of my own to tell them about.All this started with people's doubts about the miracles in the New Testament that John said he described in his gospel for the purpose of persuading people that Christ has the power to save them. Then, I forget why, somebody linked to that website of odd occurrences that I said are not on the order of miracles by God but probably within the powers of demons, such as Marian apparitions.But nothing I say about these things is taken seriously so I'm rather sorry I kept responding.

I've been looking for a particular quote I can't find yet, something R C Sproul quoted in his series on the covenants, one covenant, perhaps the Mosaic, where God specifically says He did all the miracles to show that He is the one and only creator God. I hope I can eventually find it. There are many places in the Old Testament, not just the New Testament, where it is made clear that God used miracles to demonstrate His identity as the One True God. It was always for that purpose, to distinguish Him from the many tribal gods, who are identified as demons in 1 Corinthians 10:20. Although Israel was His chosen people to represent Him, His purpose was always to set the whole human race free from the demonic tribal gods, which finally happened when Jesus died on the cross. There are mentions in the OT of pagans outside Israel who learn that the God of the Israelites is the one Creator God. Rahab for one, Ruth for another, the aide to the Syrian king who was cured of leprosy in the Jordan for another. HERE'S A PAGEthat lists many miracles as having the purpose of giving honor to God as the one true God. It also points to other parts of the New Testament besides John's gospel where the same purpose is ascribed to Jesus' miracles.Edited by Faith, : No reason given.