Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,808 Year: 3,065/9,624 Month: 910/1,588 Week: 93/223 Day: 4/17 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   R.C.Sprouls Teaching On Reformed Theology
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 175 (825026)
12-06-2017 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Phat
12-06-2017 3:03 PM


Re: Purposeful GOD versus Random Chaos
Phat writes:
Its sad to see.
I would prefer a God who knows us, loves us, allows us to learn and grow yet is there to save me from my mistakes....a bit like my parents used to do.
I cannot deny that humans usually create the God that they want.
The trial that I am going through now is making peace with the GOD Who is.
It's often difficult but it can be done. The problem I see is a self created one within much of current Christianity; Christianity today too often markets the God they create rather than teaching kids about the GOD who is. You would have far less trouble had this awakening happened when you were a preteen or early teen.
Edited by jar, : add Mom

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Phat, posted 12-06-2017 3:03 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 12-06-2017 3:55 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 175 (825028)
12-06-2017 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by PaulK
12-06-2017 3:32 PM


Re: origins
PaulK writes:
He talked about an unnamed physicist talking about gradual spontaneous generation - which would at least give me something to check - but googling it doesn’t come up with ANY scientific results.
It's the scientist Jack Chick talked to.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by PaulK, posted 12-06-2017 3:32 PM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 12-06-2017 11:20 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 71 of 175 (825063)
12-07-2017 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
12-06-2017 11:20 PM


Re: origins
Phat writes:
Your argument actually has merit, and yet I can also see when Sproul argues that if chance even exists, God is finished.
Yet chance, probabilities, are a fact and can and are tested daily by everyone. What is finished is the God he creates and markets. And that, in the immortal words of W. C. Sellar and R. J. Yeatman, is a Good Thing.
Phat writes:
He likely would argue that chance only applies to predetermined possibilities but that ascribing any power to chance to determine anything, it is effectively robbing his God of the power of absolute determinism.
If he did make that argument it would simply be another stupid thing to say.
Consider chance and God. One can be demonstrated, the other cannot be demonstrated. One can be tested while the other cannot be tested.
And when Sproul titles a work "Essential Truths Of The Christian Faith" it is simply another example of his mouth writing a check his ass can't cash.
RC Sproul is not the comptroller of Christianity. He may well make money selling that idea but he has no vested control over what Truths of the Christian Faith exist.
He can market HIS Chapter's bylaws but can only address HIS Chapter.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 12-06-2017 11:20 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 12-07-2017 7:14 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 74 of 175 (825067)
12-07-2017 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Phat
12-07-2017 7:14 AM


beliefs about God
Phat writes:
Mind you I never ascribed to the God of TULIP knowing the evil and illogic that has been exposed, but I always have seen God as interactive and personal rather than distant, majestic, and necessarily aloof due to the chasm that separates my ant from His omnipresence.
And there is little wrong with continuing that belief as long as you don't use it as an excuse for YOU not doing stuff.
Go back just a few posts and review the discussion on "How to Pray". That represents an interactive and personal relationship but with a slight twist. It's saying "Teach me how to tie my shoes" rather than "Tie my shoes".
quote:
And now, Father, send us out
to do the work you have given us to do,
to love and serve you
as faithful witnesses of Christ our Lord.

To him, to you, and to the Holy Spirit,
be honor and glory, now and for ever. Amen.
Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Phat, posted 12-07-2017 7:14 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 75 of 175 (825070)
12-07-2017 10:32 AM


Just a few short current summary points so far
So far there have been a few key points I'd like to list just as way points in the travel so far.
It has been established that RC Sproul is a Calvinist. Message 3
It has been established that RC Sproul favors and tries to emulate Whitfield in an enthusiastic ministry which is a counter to a ministry based on reason. Message 12 & Message 14
We touched on Biblical Inerrancy since RC Sproul was one of the organizers and motivators as well as a signator to the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy. Message 18
We have spent many posts discussing TULIP which Sproul has said is the basis for the Calvinist position and have arrived at a definitive statement from Phat about the topic. Message 63
It was asked how I define Biblical Christianity but I explained I don't try to do that; rather I accept the word of those who claim and self identify as Biblical Christians and then compare their teachings to what is actually written in the Bible stories. Message 36
Most recently we discussed the issue of chance and addressed several of the strawman creations presented by Sproul. I don't think any consensus has been reached there yet.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-07-2017 11:28 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 175 (825080)
12-07-2017 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Phat
12-07-2017 11:28 AM


Re: The School Of Hard Knox
Expand your reading sources. Knox was a radical terrorist.
Phat writes:
Some of us myself included have argued previously that persecution within Christianity was evidence that the cause was real.
That is another really really stupid argument.
Was the long march evidence that Mao's cause was just?
Was the Bolshevik revolution evidence that Lenin's cause was just?
Was the deaths of so many Cuban supporters of Castro evidence that his cause was just?
People often do wrong things.
People often die for dumb causes.
Protestants persecuted Roman Catholics.
Roman Catholics persecuted Protestants.
Protestant Parliamentarians persecuted Protestant Monarchists.
Protestants and Roman Catholics persecuted Jews and Muslims and Druid and Native American Indians and Mormons and anyone else that was handy.
And almost none of it had anything to do with religion but rather who controlled the power and wealth.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 12-07-2017 11:28 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 12-07-2017 8:14 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 82 of 175 (825091)
12-07-2017 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Phat
12-07-2017 8:14 PM


Re: Institutes Of The Christian Religion
It might be worthwhile looking at four relatively contemporary examples; Calvin's Institutes and Luther's 95 Theses and The True Law of Free Monarchies; or, The Reciprocal and Mutual Duty Betwixt a Free King and His Natural Subjects of James I &VI and the works of John Locke which you already glanced over. These four seminal positions pretty much outlined the struggles for power in Europe over the next several hundred years or so.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Phat, posted 12-07-2017 8:14 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 175 (825241)
12-10-2017 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
12-10-2017 12:11 PM


Re: Is TULIP Biblical?
Sheesh Quote mining and proof texts.
Let's take stuff out of context because the rubes are too stupid to have actually read the Bible.
Phat writes:
You cant honestly expect Theologians to critically examine the Bible and speak of a "god character" and base their doctrine on the idea that humans wrote, edited, and redacted the bible. It leaves them with no working definition for the God they believe exists.
Actually I expect that as a very minimum requirement. What you describe is what a snake-oil salesman does.
Should we expect those who are marketing the product to be honest about what is says?
When it comes to religion should we settle for them selling the sizzle instead of the steak?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 12-10-2017 12:11 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 12-10-2017 12:36 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 90 of 175 (825256)
12-10-2017 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
12-10-2017 12:36 PM


Re: Is TULIP Biblical?
Phat writes:
There needs to be a consensus on what God we are worshiping and which God we choose to market.
Nonsense.
We need to throw God away.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 12-10-2017 12:36 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 91 of 175 (825303)
12-11-2017 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
12-10-2017 12:56 PM


Re: Is TULIP Biblical?
Phat writes:
TULIP hardly seems like sizzle to me.
It is sizzle when you are told (as you were told) that you are the Elect and Saved and Once Elected you can Never Lose That Election.
Phat writes:
If anything, it describes a God who is uncaring. So what if He has the power to do whatever He deems right?
But that only becomes an issue if you actually examine the teachings. How many of the Elect actually look at and examine the teachings from outside the paradigm?
Phat writes:
As believers, cant we at least start with the belief that GOD is?
As believers that is a good place to start; but then it seems folk want to paint that in a way that fits their desires. Then we get Gods and gods.
Phat writes:
So we can agree that we are working out our ideas of a God we can agree on?
Why. Why not let each person imagine and worship the God they create?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 12-10-2017 12:56 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-11-2017 10:24 PM jar has seen this message but not replied
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 12-12-2017 8:38 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 96 of 175 (825309)
12-12-2017 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
12-12-2017 8:38 AM


personal journey
Phat writes:
jar writes:
Why not let each person imagine and worship the God they create?
Does this include you?
Sure. Of course it includes me.
Phat writes:
Not that I know the inner workings of your mind and soul, but in my mind, the God you have created is beyond your capacity to fully understand.
  • He is almost certainly unlike anything any humans have defined so far.
  • He does not favor any one group of people.
  • He can be described as a She or an It because He is not simply anthropomorphically human...thus beyond gender.
  • In addition, your position on Jesus is still unclear. While Jesus is not God (The Father) is He a human like all of us that was resurrected by GOD? If so,
    did Jesus exist pre-incarnation or was he just like the rest of us humans?
  • Close. Yes, GOD if GOD exists is almost certainly none of the Gods or Gods we acknowledge. And yes, a GOD that is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen is far beyond my capacity to even begin saying I understand.
    It's possible that GOD might look on some creation like a father of a precocious child. But a Good Parent does not exhibit favoritism even while recognizing innate exceptional potential but instead provides greater challenges for the precocious child.
    Yes. Several reasons. All the evidence shows that there are far more than two sexes, that many critters change sex, that some are both male and female and either alternating the sex or both male and female at the same time and that even the terms we use to discuss sex are amorphous.
    My position on Jesus is really pretty simple.
    While Jesus was living here among humans (if Jesus actually existed) he was simply a human. Not God, not part God, but just plain human; born as a human, raised as a Jew. I can't speculate of whether or not Jesus existed before his birth or after his ascension. Both of those instances face the same hurdle as all the Gods we create.
    The term incarnation means to fully take on the form of; to become.
    Go back to the Nicene Creed.
    quote:
    Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man;
    Even the format used by the Christian Reformed Church is similar.
    quote:
    For us and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven;
    he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
    and was made human.
    Both say that Jesus, regardless of any prior or later nature, was made a man, a human, just like all of us.
    (aside: The Nicene Creed is still under dispute between the Western and Eastern traditions over the inclusion of the term "and the Son" in the lines in the last stanza dealing with the concept of The Holy Spirit)
    quote:
    He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
    and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
    And that is an important point. Even within Christianity there is not unanimous acceptance of even something a basic to the faith as the Nicene Creed; differences that have not been resolved in over 1600 years.
    Based on the available evidence the idea of coming up with some consensus God seems futile.
    But what we can do is examine the God different peoples market.
    I can look at the God Calvinists market and say "If that is God then I reject all that God stands for". I can look at Ganesha and say "Yes, an enabler, remover of obstacles God is one I could support." I can look at the the God Young Earth supporters market or Flood supporters market and say "Nope, can't worship or honor a God that is just a dishonest trickster."
    Edited by jar, : fix sub-title

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 95 by Phat, posted 12-12-2017 8:38 AM Phat has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 97 by Phat, posted 12-12-2017 11:22 AM jar has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 393 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 99 of 175 (825314)
    12-12-2017 12:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 97 by Phat
    12-12-2017 11:22 AM


    Re: personal journey
    Phat writes:
    In jars words, are these men taking pieces parts out of context? What mistake did Calvin...and much later RC Sproul and John MacArthur...make regarding the use of scripture to defend their beliefs? Also...concerning the "God" of Calvinism...
    Yes, they most certainly are taking pieces parts out of context. It's not a mistake but rather an intentional tactic to market the God they created.
    Any religion that markets using proof texts or short pieces taken out of context is creating the God they want.
    Phat writes:
    Whereas I can accept some of what they teach and/or market while rejecting other points or beliefs. In my mind, the Calvinists have used scripture extensively to support their idea. To reject the God wholesale means basically having to imagine a totally different God than what scripture talks about.
    But the reality is that there is no such thing as "the God that scripture talks about". What they are marketing is the God that fits their sales plan.
    The truth is that the Bible stories are filled with a vast collection of descriptions and characterizations of God and many if not most are contradictory.
    There is no universal God to be found in the Bible.
    What gets marketed is some extra Biblical God where each salesman picks the pieces parts out that fit his marketing plan.
    It works.
    And it also explains why there are so many Christian Denominations and many times more Non-Denominational Churches.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 97 by Phat, posted 12-12-2017 11:22 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 100 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:07 PM jar has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 393 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    (1)
    Message 101 of 175 (825613)
    12-16-2017 1:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 100 by Faith
    12-16-2017 1:07 PM


    Re: personal journey
    Faith writes:
    And of course the Bible is all about one universal God, who inspired it.
    So you claim but of course that is simply not true or factual.
    The God character in the Bible is yet another example of contradictions and evolution found throughout the Bible.
    The newer God found in Genesis 1 is characterized entirely differently than the much older God found in Genesis 2&3.
    In the older stories the Hebrew God is but one of many Gods and in fact tied to a particular piece of real estate. That is why Namaan asked for two donkey loads of dirt from Israel.
    In the New Testament God becomes an off stage voice, a classic Greek Chorus or Mira.
    Each Bible story writer created the God that was appropriate to the story being told and the era and milieu they lived within.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 100 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:07 PM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 102 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:37 PM jar has replied
     Message 105 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 10:01 AM jar has replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 393 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 103 of 175 (825620)
    12-16-2017 1:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 102 by Faith
    12-16-2017 1:37 PM


    Re: personal journey
    Faith writes:
    I guess we can endlessly trade perspectives, your recently invented attempt to kill the Bible and my traditional knowledge that the Bible is God's word.
    Again with the misrepresentation Faith. You need to try to learn to not constant misrepresent stuff.
    I do not attempt to kill the Bible and in fact try very hard to actually report what is honestly written in the Bible and to highlight when people misuse and pervert the Bible.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 102 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:37 PM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 104 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:49 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 393 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 106 of 175 (825687)
    12-17-2017 10:33 AM
    Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
    12-17-2017 10:01 AM


    Re: Is God Always Created By Humans? Implications....
    Phat writes:
    I can admit that humans likely make god out to be what they want Him to be and see Him as....but what bothers me about what you say is the total lack of belief that God actually exists and interacts with us.
    Stop right there.
    What I have said is I cannot think of anyway to determine if someone is communicating with a God.
    I have never said that people cannot believe that God actually exists and interacts with them but no one has ever been able to explain how that is done.
    The facts though are as I posted and you quoted.
    jar writes:
    The God character in the Bible is yet another example of contradictions and evolution found throughout the Bible.
    The newer God found in Genesis 1 is characterized entirely differently than the much older God found in Genesis 2&3.
    In the older stories the Hebrew God is but one of many Gods and in fact tied to a particular piece of real estate. That is why Namaan asked for two donkey loads of dirt from Israel.
    In the New Testament God becomes an off stage voice, a classic Greek Chorus or Mira.
    Each Bible story writer created the God that was appropriate to the story being told and the era and milieu they lived within.
    Phat writes:
    So are you basically saying that in all instances, humans created God?
    How can it be otherwise?
    Just as with past authors, people today can only describe the God character they imagine exists.
    AbE:
    Look at the Biblical evidence.
    In Genesis 1 as well as Genesis 2&3 the God character is known only by his behavior, and the behavior of the two Gods is diametrically opposed.
    In other parts God is an off stage voice, a burning bush, a hand writing on the wall, an unknown stranger met unexpectedly. Even the actual name of God is not spoken. In the New Testament the God is more like the God of Genesis 1 than the God of any of the other Old Testament books; but still simply an offstage voice or the sender of messengers or testers.
    You are pretty much inline with all those past authors and facing much the same challenges.
    Edited by jar, : see AbE

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 105 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 10:01 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024