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Author | Topic: R.C.Sprouls Teaching On Reformed Theology | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: What Calvinists market is that God favors them only and specifically, that Jesus death as atonement is not for everyone but Calvinists only, that God chose Calvinist only. Remember the L in TULIP; Limited Atonement. It is perhaps the most vile form of Christianity I can imagine and goes directly against what the Bible claims Jesus taught. RC Sproul, Essential Truths Of The Christian Faith writes:
1. Definite atonement replaces the term limited atonement in the acrosticTULIP. 2. Definite atonement refers to the scope of God’s design for redemption and the intent of the Cross. 3. All who are not universalists agree that Christ’s atonement is sufficient for all, but effective only for those who believe. 4. Christ’s atonement was an actual propitiation for sin, not a potential or conditional propitiation. 5. The Atonement in a broad sense is offered to all; in a narrow sense, it is only offered to the elect. 6. John’s teaching that Christ died for the sins of the whole world means that the elect are not limited to Israel but are found throughout the world I was surprised to see Sproul defending Calvinism so strictly. Your argument actually has merit, and yet I can also see when Sproul argues that if chance even exists, God is finished. He likely would argue that chance only applies to predetermined possibilities but that ascribing any power to chance to determine anything, it is effectively robbing his God of the power of absolute determinism. Essentially, his argument is that chance is nothing and yet people use it to describe the origin of virtually everything. I suppose he would argue that God belongs in that spot. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I agree and yet in a way, I mourn the death of God as I understood God to be. Mind you I never ascribed to the God of TULIP knowing the evil and illogic that has been exposed, but I always have seen God as interactive and personal rather than distant, majestic, and necessarily aloof due to the chasm that separates my ant from His omnipresence.
Of course, I still am left with Jesus, and I still believe that Jesus is a living intercessor.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I read a good article about John Knox (1514-1572), Presbyterian with a sword~
It mentioned the power of religion in those days...the Roman Catholic Church in particular.
quote:Of course, immorality has always been represented in religious men as much as it has in politics and any other profession. Knox was a fiery orator and reformer, and his life likely was forged by the struggle of his day. The struggle at that time was literally a matter of life or death. quote: And so on and so forth...It seems to me that the American Protestants of Calvinist persuasion have been seduced by money moreso than threatened with any loss of life. RC Sproul and others often host talks together to reaffirm unity and agree upon doctrine. The earlier reformers had a passion and zeal no doubt forged by the persecution which they suffered. Some of us myself included have argued previously that persecution within Christianity was evidence that the cause was real. I mean, how many people would risk the loss of life, limb and property were they simply con artists?Comments? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
John Calvin wrote a book similar to Sprouls and of course he did it first. It likely is what Sproul based his book on:Institutes Of The Christian Religion
RC Sproul: Essential Truths Of The Christian Faith As I compare and contrast both books side by side, I am struck with many similarities of belief. First of all, Calvins arrogance was greater than Sprouls. To wit:
Institutes writes: prefixed to the second edition, published at strasburg in 1539.In the First Edition of this work, having no expectation of the success which God has, in his goodness, been pleased to give it, I had, for the greater part, performed my office perfunctorily, as is usual in trivial undertakings. But when I perceived that almost all the godly had received it with a favour which I had never dared to wish, far less to hope for, being sincerely conscious that I had received much more than I deserved, I thought I should be very ungrateful if I did not endeavour, at least according to my humble ability, to respond to the great kindness which had been expressed towards me, and which spontaneously urged me to diligence. I therefore ask no other favour from the studious for my new work than that which they have already bestowed upon me beyond my merits. I feel so much obliged, that I shall be satisfied if I am thought not to have made a bad return for the gratitude I owe. This return I would have made much earlier, had not the Lord, for almost two whole years, exercised me in an extraordinary manner. But it is soon enough if well enough. I shall think it has appeared in good season when I perceive that it produces some fruit to the Church of God. I may add, that my object in this work was to prepare and train students of theology for the study of the Sacred Volume, so that they might both have an easy introduction to it, and be able to proceed in it, with unfaltering step, seeing I have endeavoured to give such a summary of religion in all its parts, and have digested it into such an order as may make it not difficult for any one, who is rightly acquainted with it, to ascertain both what he ought principally to look for in Scripture, and also to what head he ought to refer whatever is contained in it. Having thus, as it were, paved the way, I shall not feel it necessary, in any Commentaries on Scripture which I may afterwards publish, to enter into long discussions of doctrines or dilate on common places, and will, therefore, always compress them. In this way the pious reader will be saved much trouble and weariness, provided he comes furnished with a knowledge of the present work as an essential prerequisite. Basically, the whole doctrine of what we now call Calvinism was laid out in this book. Original Sin is there, Gods Sovereignty, all of the issues which we disagree with amongst each other at EvC in our religious debates...One example here. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Faith writes: Faith brings up a point. (Of course, you will say that people can and do use the Bible to support whatever philosophy, belief, or doctrine that they want.) But lets examine the scriptures of TULIP. But the doctrine of Election is in the Bible and all of them recognized that, the doctrine of Predestination, all of it. Sproul has his views on it, and much of what he says unabahedly backs it up as the preferred Theology within his club. TULIP and Reformed Theology: An Introduction Now let me find the scriptures that they use to support the idea: Total Depravity (Original Sin) Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 1:18—25; 3:9—23; 7:18; 1 John 1:8—10 Unconditional Election: Romans 8:28—39; Ephesians 1:3—14; 2:8; 2 Timothy 1:9, 10 Limited Atonement: John 6:37—39; 17:6—12; Romans 5:8—10; 1 John 4:9, 10; Revelation 5:9, 10 Irresistable Grace: John 10:3, 4; 11:38—46; Galatians 1:15; Revelation 22:17 All that the Theologians seemed they were trying to do was to attempt to understand and define God in light of scripture. You cant honestly expect Theologians to critically examine the Bible and speak of a "god character" and base their doctrine on the idea that humans wrote, edited, and redacted the bible. It leaves them with no working definition for the God they believe exists. Granted TULIP speaks of a God that I would prefer not to believe in...but after all, I need to have a frame of reference to conceptualize the God whom I believe actually is. And i dont really like the universalist idea of a God compiled from many varying belief systems either. I trust that God Himself will ultimately guide me into understanding Him better...eventually.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
I agree that honesty is important. There needs to be a consensus on what God we are worshiping and which God we choose to market.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Good argument we have developing here!
jar writes: Should we expect those who are marketing the product to be honest about what is says?When it comes to religion should we settle for them selling the sizzle instead of the steak? TULIP hardly seems like sizzle to me. If anything, it describes a God who is uncaring. So what if He has the power to do whatever He deems right? My point is that if we are to describe GOD at all, we should at least come to a consensus regarding the GOD who is rather than simply pointing out the characters of God created by earlier humans. As believers, cant we at least start with the belief that GOD is? (apart from any human attempts at characterization?) Next, are we in any sort of agreement that of the many characters of God described in the Bible, there is one who seems more likely?
PaulK writes: So we can agree that we are working out our ideas of a God we can agree on? Or are we gonna remain uncommitted and philosophical? They should certainly care about the differing depictions of God in the Bible and recognize that in some cases God appears as a character in a story. And they should certainly care about the process by which the Bible came to us. That is how they should work out their ideas of God - that is their job as theologians..Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Another well known Bible teacher is John MacArthur. This is what he says regarding this issue of election:
quote: Just as with RC Sproul, John MacArthur is the heart and soul of Biblical Christianity. His integrity has so far remained unscathed....but the question again is this: In jars words, are these men taking pieces parts out of context? What mistake did Calvin...and much later RC Sproul and John MacArthur...make regarding the use of scripture to defend their beliefs? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Why not let each person imagine and worship the God they create? Does this include you? Not that I know the inner workings of your mind and soul, but in my mind, the God you have created is beyond your capacity to fully understand.
did Jesus exist pre-incarnation or was he just like the rest of us humans? Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Even within Christianity there is not unanimous acceptance of even something a basic to the faith as the Nicene Creed; differences that have not been resolved in over 1600 years. Based on the available evidence the idea of coming up with some consensus God seems futile. But what we can do is examine the God different peoples market. So again I ask: Just as with RC Sproul, John MacArthur is the heart and soul of Biblical Christianity. His integrity has so far remained unscathed....but the question again is this: In jars words, are these men taking pieces parts out of context? What mistake did Calvin...and much later RC Sproul and John MacArthur...make regarding the use of scripture to defend their beliefs? Also...concerning the "God" of Calvinism...
jar writes: Whereas I can accept some of what they teach and/or market while rejecting other points or beliefs. In my mind, the Calvinists have used scripture extensively to support their idea. To reject the God wholesale means basically having to imagine a totally different God than what scripture talks about. I can look at the God Calvinists market and say "If that is God then I reject all that God stands for". Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: So are you basically saying that in all instances, humans created God? I simply cant accept this. And if we were to honestly confront the storytellers of each era (through our magic time machine) and ask them to honestly admit that they were creating God, they would likely deny such an assertion...much as Faith denies that she does it. I can admit that humans likely make god out to be what they want Him to be and see Him as....but what bothers me about what you say is the total lack of belief that God actually exists and interacts with us. You may claim...honestly...that you have no idea...but to project this belief onto the rest of us is a bit of a stretch. The God character in the Bible is yet another example of contradictions and evolution found throughout the Bible. The newer God found in Genesis 1 is characterized entirely differently than the much older God found in Genesis 2&3. In the older stories the Hebrew God is but one of many Gods and in fact tied to a particular piece of real estate. That is why Namaan asked for two donkey loads of dirt from Israel. In the New Testament God becomes an off stage voice, a classic Greek Chorus or Mira. Each Bible story writer created the God that was appropriate to the story being told and the era and milieu they lived within.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Hmmm.
If they were honest, they would at the very least have to acknowledge that they were embellishing. Embellish make (a statement or story) more interesting or entertaining by adding extra details, especially ones that are not true. "she had real difficulty telling the truth because she liked to embellish things" synonyms: elaborate, embroider, expand on, exaggerate "the legend was embellished in later retellings" I would argue that they would say they were elaborating...and were sticking to the truth as they understood it. Perhaps exaggeration would be inevitable, but they would likely defend their integrity. For examle, jar and I disagree on the character of GOD. jar says GOD is complete. I say GOD is good. GODmay well have created the possibility of evil, but this fact alone does not make GOD evil. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
How do you account for the discrepancies? Human nature. Incorrect information. Perhaps even cultural bias.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
It starts with belief. Not with evidence. Thats why you never became a believer. You started with evidence.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
It seems that Joel Osteen and his popular brand of positive affirmations goes directly against the traditional beliefs of the late Dr.Sproul and his contemporaries. One of the speakers whom I have respected is Ravi Zacharias. Here he eloquently points out the deficiencies in Osteen's message:
A generation of people who deny Jesus Christ as the only way to God....sounds a bit like our do your best arguments here at EvC where we place the responsibility of being a good and honest person and doing your best above the traditional message regarding Christ. Edited by Phat, : spellingChance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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