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Author Topic:   Pope Francis allows for Atheism
Coyote
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Posts: 6103
Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 46 of 60 (701122)
06-11-2013 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Taq
06-11-2013 8:29 PM


Even more, should we restrict democracy based on religious views?

We might have to. We exclude other misfits.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Taq, posted 06-11-2013 8:29 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 27672
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 47 of 60 (701126)
06-12-2013 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Taq
06-11-2013 8:08 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
What does Christianity have to do with controlling people?

Seriously? Read up on the Inquisition.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this, doing a little of both. That was my POINT, Taq, all that business about control doesn't BELONG in Christianity, has nothing to DO with true Christianity. Just think about Jesus Himself. The Inquisition was a gross evil travesty of Christianity which in fact murdered millions of TRUE Christians. And my point of course is that the craving for power and control comes from where? FROM THE ROMAN CHURCH. From the Jesuit order in spades. It is NOT in Protestantism. So if Hitler and his cohorts, many of whom were also Catholics, found various RCC models of use to their aim of world domination, that's about CATHOLICISM, not Christianity.

Doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that it would be a religious organization that would be so inspiring to the Nazis?

Let's see . . . religions have millions of followers who blindly follow the edicts of the priesthood . . . why would Nazis be inspired by this again? Oh, that's right. THAT'S WHAT THEY WERE TRYING TO DO!!! Do you think it was a coincidence that the phrase "Gott mit uns" was found on the buttons of SS uniforms?

Boy have I failed to get across my message to you. What do you think I've been talking about? The influence of the NONChristian, in fact Antichristian, Roman Catholic Church which CALLS itself Christian to the confusion of the whole world. My point to Tempe was to appeal to his sense of what Christianity SHOULD be based on the Bible and Jesus Christ but maybe he'll miss the point too, I guess I'll find out. With that in mind it OUGHT to be very odd to anyone that the Nazis got so much of their methods from "religion." Again, the point is that Catholic religion is NOT Christianity, it's into power and control and world domination, the complete opposite of true Christianity.

{NECESSARY CAVEAT: I am NOT talking about everyday Catholics, some of whom really do love Jesus and try to live the true Christian life. When sincere Catholics find out about what goes on in the Vatican they are just as appalled as I am. I did list some Catholic writers back there who have called the Vatican on their evil ways, such as Lord Acton, Malachi Martin, Peter DeRosa, and sundry ex-Jesuits.}

The early Protestants were the victims of the Inquisition in huge numbers, some 50 million, but this fact tends to get ignored completely in discussions of "Christian" persecutions.

It was christians doing the persecution. I guess atheists, pagans, and muslims were in low numbers at the time, so they turned on themselves.

The whole point here is to show that Catholicism is NOT Christian, it's what the Reformers called it -- or called its leadership, the papacy and the Jesuits -- Antichrist. You do exemplify exactly that confusion I was talking about to Tempe, the confusion of false with true Christianity as one so commonly hears all those murders and atrocities ascribed to "Christianity." I'm TRYING to correct that view in my posts, but I'm seeing that it's harder than I would have thought.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Taq, posted 06-11-2013 8:08 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 49 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 06-12-2013 3:52 PM Faith has not yet responded
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1.61803
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Posts: 2754
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


(2)
Message 48 of 60 (701159)
06-12-2013 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
06-12-2013 2:27 AM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
Faith writes:

murdered millions of TRUE Christians


A quick check on the interwebz shows:
the number the inqusition executed is more likey 30-300k. That is a high estimate.

Faith writes:

NONChristian, in fact Antichristian, Roman Catholic Church which CALLS itself Christian to the confusion of the whole world.

Oh right the whole world is confused and you know whats really going on. Riiiiiiight.

Faith writes:

Catholic religion is NOT Christianity


huh?

Faith writes:

The whole point here is to show that Catholicism is NOT Christian

I suppose if you say it enough times it must be true.

It seems the Catholics have been very busy doing all the evil shit the Protestants wish to distance them selves from.
You really should seek help. That much hatred can't be healthy.


"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
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Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


(1)
Message 49 of 60 (701170)
06-12-2013 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
06-12-2013 2:27 AM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
Faith writes:

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this, doing a little of both. That was my POINT, Taq, all that business about control doesn't BELONG in Christianity, has nothing to DO with true Christianity. Just think about Jesus Himself.

No, it doesn't have anything to do with Christianity, as you see it. However, the rest of us are not wearing blinders and do realize that religion is a means to control people, whether it be through behavior modification, demanding monetary tithing, or control over political decisions within a nation-state. All religions have always been about control. Some were just better at it. But this is historical fact and does not have anything to do with the current affairs in the church. Even the Catholic Church, an organization known for centuries to be able to control its congregation, has been forced to realize that it no longer has the same amount of control and must find a new way, which is what I think this new Pope is doing. Relinquishing control mechanisms and offering peaceful cohabitation with all peoples, even those who don't believe at all.

Faith writes:

The Inquisition was a gross evil travesty of Christianity which in fact murdered millions of TRUE Christians.

Hundreds of thousands actually, but still not a good thing. Religion is constantly used as an excuse for the destruction of people. It was used by the Protestants in Northern Ireland to subjugate the Catholics in Ireland for hundreds of years, leading to the Irish Holocaust as they took viable food away leaving only potatoes (which went bad) for the Irish Catholics. So, we see that control is a means exploited by both groups to get what they want. Is stealing food from those who are starving a Christian value? Is not allowing Catholics to own property or have a political voice Christian? Or.....is it a means of controlling a population. This was done by the Protestants...so, yes, they also control people.

Faith writes:

And my point of course is that the craving for power and control comes from where? FROM THE ROMAN CHURCH. From the Jesuit order in spades. It is NOT in Protestantism. So if Hitler and his cohorts, many of whom were also Catholics, found various RCC models of use to their aim of world domination, that's about CATHOLICISM, not Christianity.

It did come from the RCC, but what you are missing is why. If you wanted to control and enslave the minds of people, whose advice would you take?

A. A group that attempts to control but whenever differences are found fractures into even smaller groups (Protestants)

or

B. A group that attempts to control, maintains control, when it loses control utilizes fear to regain the control (Catholics

The Nazi leaders were not stupid and determined that the Catholic set up was more applicable to the situation they wanted to embrace. Also, you keep trying to deny Luther's influence because he is, as you say, a True Christian. However, please read about what happened on Crystal Night, and then read the suggestions for treating the Jews in Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies". Crystal Night, the beginning of the Holocaust, was nearly identical to the ideas set forth in Martin Luther's book. Did the Nazis go further later, yes, but the original idea is straight out of Luther's writings.

I am not arguing that these ideas of control are Christian (which includes Catholics, no matter what you say), but rather that in order to maintain Christianity, it requires that you control the hearts and minds of people. Why was the Catholic Church so anti-science through the Dark Ages? Why are the Protestant Churches so anti-science now? Because the more people learn the less control of their minds they are giving to the churches.

Faith writes:

Boy have I failed to get across my message to you. What do you think I've been talking about? The influence of the NONChristian, in fact Antichristian, Roman Catholic Church which CALLS itself Christian to the confusion of the whole world. My point to Tempe was to appeal to his sense of what Christianity SHOULD be based on the Bible and Jesus Christ but maybe he'll miss the point too, I guess I'll find out. With that in mind it OUGHT to be very odd to anyone that the Nazis got so much of their methods from "religion." Again, the point is that Catholic religion is NOT Christianity, it's into power and control and world domination, the complete opposite of true Christianity.

You have yet to give me any unbiased evidence that the Catholic Church is not Christian. All you have given is your personal opinion and some books written by individuals who have an agenda against the Catholic Church. Find me some writings by an atheist that states this, or by a Jewish individual, or by a Muslim. The individuals you are quoting have too much to lose by this theory and must cling to it desperately. I see the control levels in both Protestantism and Catholicism.

Should Christianity really be based on the Bible and what it says? Or are you really saying that Christianity should be based on the Bible and what you (and those who agree with you) claim it says? I think that Christianity SHOULD be based on two things and nothing else. Since you are desperate to believe in a God, the first thing is "You should love the Lord your God with all your heart". And the second thing is "Love your neighbor as yourself". That is all Christianity SHOULD be based on. However, you can put shit in one hand and wishes in the other and see which one fills up first. I don't look at how things SHOULD be, but rather how they are and that means that Catholics are Christians.

As for the Nazi ideas coming from Christianity, it only makes sense. These are groups well known for controlling hearts and minds, both Catholics and Protestants. I mean for Buddha's sake, how can you say Protestants don't control people's minds when you personally hand wave away evidence because it doesn't conform to your worldview. I'm pretty sure they have a good grip on your mind and it shows.

Faith writes:

{NECESSARY CAVEAT: I am NOT talking about everyday Catholics, some of whom really do love Jesus and try to live the true Christian life. When sincere Catholics find out about what goes on in the Vatican they are just as appalled as I am. I did list some Catholic writers back there who have called the Vatican on their evil ways, such as Lord Acton, Malachi Martin, Peter DeRosa, and sundry ex-Jesuits.}

I know you are not referring to individual Catholics. Just as I am not referring to individual Protestants. It is harder to see the level of control in the Protestant churches because of the amount of fracturing that has taken place throughout that movement. However, once a group has a grip....you see power and control take over the congregation. Such as......

.....The Protestant (Seventh Day Adventists) Branch Davidians!!! Pretty sure Koresh had some mad control going on there.

Faith writes:

I'm TRYING to correct that view in my posts, but I'm seeing that it's harder than I would have thought.

It is harder than you thought because you want to hand wave away the evidence against the Christians who are not Catholics. You want to blame the 400-odd deaths caused by the IRA during The Troubles on the Catholics, but you are not holding the Protestants responsible for the millions killed during the Irish Holocaust. It is definitely going to be difficult when you are relying on incomplete data.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 06-12-2013 2:27 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member
Posts: 436
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 50 of 60 (701173)
06-12-2013 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by GDR
06-11-2013 12:15 AM


Re: It's in the Book.
GDR writes:

The Pope simply brought the church in line with what the Bible actually says.

Agreed, but the fact that this sentiment came from the Holy See is what makes the difference. I have heard Priests and other members of the church state that Atheists can get to their heaven. The amazing part of this, at least to me, is that it finally came from the highest office in the Church.

Disclaimer - I still do not trust that there is any evidence their heaven exists, I just like the concept of people accepting one another for who they are and not requiring them to toe the line.


The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov

If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-end…the person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson

What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by GDR, posted 06-11-2013 12:15 AM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 4371
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 51 of 60 (701177)
06-12-2013 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
06-12-2013 3:56 PM


Re: It's in the Book.
T12Chicken writes:

Agreed, but the fact that this sentiment came from the Holy See is what makes the difference. I have heard Priests and other members of the church state that Atheists can get to their heaven. The amazing part of this, at least to me, is that it finally came from the highest office in the Church.

This what Paul says in his 1st letter to the Corinthians.

quote:
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

Both Paul and the Gospels are clear that it is the motivation of our hearts that separates us from, or makes us right with God. That is the whole point of Christian grace. It isn't simply about what we do or don't do but it is about our fundamental humanness. It isn't about our doctrinal beliefs.

T12Chicken writes:

Disclaimer - I still do not trust that there is any evidence their heaven exists, I just like the concept of people accepting one another for who they are and not requiring them to toe the line.

Let's talk this over again when we get there.

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


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Taq
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Posts: 7421
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.3


(3)
Message 52 of 60 (701181)
06-12-2013 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Faith
06-12-2013 2:27 AM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
That was my POINT, Taq, all that business about control doesn't BELONG in Christianity, has nothing to DO with true Christianity.

And yet, there it is as a part of christianity. I am not talking about a fantasy world of how you think christianity should be. I am talking about the real world.

The influence of the NONChristian, in fact Antichristian, Roman Catholic Church which CALLS itself Christian to the confusion of the whole world.

The Roman Catholic Church accepts the Nicene Creed and is therefore christian.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 60 (701183)
06-12-2013 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Taq
06-12-2013 5:09 PM


Re: The Ultimate Power Play
I am talking about a fantasy world of how you think christianity should be. I am talking about the real world.

I think you accidentally a word.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Taq, posted 06-12-2013 5:09 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3073
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 54 of 60 (701233)
06-14-2013 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Faith
06-11-2013 4:58 PM


Re: Similar, but not the same
That might be the case, but think of all the Christians that bought into that.

Well, that and the fear of being killed once Hitler consolidated his power.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Faith, posted 06-11-2013 4:58 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 55 of 60 (825136)
12-08-2017 1:01 PM


Pope Francis Wants To Change Lords Prayer
An interesting article at N.P.R.

Pope Francis Suggests Changing The Words To The 'Lord's Prayer' I suppose he can do that.

The reasoning is that the prayer suggests that God tempts us and the Pope says that is not biblical.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Tangle, posted 12-08-2017 1:26 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 12-09-2017 10:54 AM Phat has responded
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 5586
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 56 of 60 (825138)
12-08-2017 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
12-08-2017 1:01 PM


Re: Pope Francis Wants To Change Lords Prayer
Phat writes:

An interesting article at N.P.R.

I guess you've got a different definition of the word 'interesting' to me.

Whatever the words, it's still total bollox - Satan leading us into temptation, what fantastical garbage.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 12-08-2017 1:01 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14516
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 57 of 60 (825166)
12-09-2017 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
12-08-2017 1:01 PM


Re: Pope Francis Wants To Change Lords Prayer
quote:
The Catholic faithful will no longer say: 'Do not submit to temptation' but 'Do not let us enter into temptation.'

So, if prayer works there will be no more temptation and no further need for confession.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Phat, posted 12-08-2017 1:01 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 12-09-2017 11:30 AM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10672
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 58 of 60 (825167)
12-09-2017 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by ringo
12-09-2017 10:54 AM


Re: Pope Francis Wants To Change Lords Prayer
So, if prayer works there will be no more temptation and no further need for confession.

God is like oxygen. You need to keep breathing...you never get a full dose...

Apparently we were designed so as to always need moments of reflection, contemplation, and I would argue dialogue with God, though some see it as silly. Ever watch Its A Wonderful Life? Do you recall the scenes where George Bailey talks with God? They are in my opinion not trite and silly. They are honest.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by ringo, posted 12-09-2017 10:54 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by ringo, posted 12-09-2017 11:39 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14516
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 59 of 60 (825169)
12-09-2017 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Phat
12-09-2017 11:30 AM


Re: Pope Francis Wants To Change Lords Prayer
Phat writes:

God is like oxygen. You need to keep breathing...you never get a full dose...


That's a poor analogy. A lot of people manage to survive without breathing God.

Phat writes:

Apparently we were designed so as to always need moments of reflection, contemplation....


Reflection and contemplation can be useful - less useful if you're just waiting for some spook to tell you The Answer™.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Phat, posted 12-09-2017 11:30 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6314
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 60 of 60 (825318)
12-12-2017 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Phat
12-08-2017 1:01 PM


Re: Pope Francis Wants To Change Lords Prayer
Phat writes:

quote:
The reasoning is that the prayer suggests that God tempts us and the Pope says that is not biblical.

Then he hasn't actually read the Bible for it directly says precisely that. Everything, good and evil, comes from god:

Behold, this evil is of the Lord. 2 Kings 6:33

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7

What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? Job 2:10

Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him. Job 42:11

Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Lamentations 3:38

Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? Amos 3:6

Granted, all that stuff is Old Testament...which isn't surprising when you think about it: Judaism is a *MONO*theistic religion. There is only one god (and yes, I know that the Old Testament talks about other gods...it evolved...you can see it evolve over the course of the books) and thus all things come from that one source. It's why there is no real concept of "the devil" in Judaism. The character of Satan in Job was an instrument of god (is actually described as one of the many sons of god). He only did those things to Job because god allowed him to and told him to.

Now, there is a Psalm that says god has no evil in him, but that's only one reference compared to all the other ones that directly and specifically state that god does do evil. But then again, that's Old Testament, too (what? The Bible contradicts itself? NOOOOOO!)

The point is that while the New Testament may say that god is love (1 John 4:8), there isn't really anything in the Bible to justify a claim that god doesn't tempt people.

On the contrary, god does it all the time. It may not be meet for us to test god, but he doesn't have any compunction against testing us.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

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