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Author | Topic: The "science" of Miracles | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Tangle writes:
That's clearly wrong. A lot of the events in the Bible that are labeled "miracles" are not impossible: crossing the Red Sea, healing the sick, feeding the multitude, etc.
It's the fact that the thing is impossible that makes it a miracle. Tangle writes:
If wine turned into blood in a reproducible and testable manner, it would not be a miracle. It would be a fact. It would be a process that we didn't understand before.
... transubstantiation is not a miracle - wine did not turn to blood. But if it ever did in a reproducible and testable manner it would be a miracle.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: You sure seem confident of human infallibility. There are a lot of things we don't know for sure...including what is and is not possible. The important point is that if we know it's impossible, we also know it didn't happen... Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2159 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
jar writes:
You seem to be in line with the modern minimalist branch of scholarship, which tends to dismiss the study of ancient language and culture. I find their approach and conclusions problematic. There are good scholarly reasons to believe that the Exodus and conquest really DID happen. See, for example, James Hoffmeier. The Conquest of Canaan did not happen. The Exodus is a folk tale. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given."Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." — Albert Einstein I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is very deficient. It gives us a lot of factual information, puts all of our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity. Science sometimes pretends to answer questions in these domains, but the answers are very often so silly that we are not inclined to take them seriously. — Erwin Schroedinger
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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There are good scholarly reasons to believe that the Exodus and conquest really DID happen. See, for example, James Hoffmeier. What reasons does that book present? Edited by New Cat's Eye, : typo
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PaulK Member Posts: 17827 Joined: Member Rating: 2.3 |
quote: By which you appear to mean archaeologists who tend to prefer the evidence provided by archaeology over legends written long after the real events (if any) that underly them.
quote: Well obviously you find any honest investigation that clashes with the Bible stories to be problematic.
quote: Then please produce some. Evidence of Israelites - or rather Canaanites who might be ancestors if the Israelites - in Egypt hardly counts. And that appears to be the main focus of Hoffmeiers book.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ringo writes: A lot of the events in the Bible that are labeled "miracles" are not impossible: crossing the Red Sea, healing the sick, feeding the multitude, etc.[ They're all impossible in the way they're supposed to have been done.
If wine turned into blood in a reproducible and testable manner, it would not be a miracle. It would be a fact. It would be an impossible fact.
It would be a process that we didn't understand before. It would be an impossible process. But enough, we both know what we mean and repetition is tedious.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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Faith writes: The gospels have been understood for two millennia to be honest accounts by honest people. That's an assumption, not evidence.
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Taq Member Posts: 10084 Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Faith writes: We're talking about something WITNESSED by people that doesn't happen to leave physical evidence. It is ASSERTED WITHOUT EVIDENCE that people witnessed something. Stories don't become true because you write them down in a book.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
NCE writes: If it has happened then it wasn't impossible. There's no point going beyond this because you're not accepting the concept of a miracle as it's defined. That's fine but to have this discussion at all, you have to allow that miracles are possible and that they defy natural laws. If you can't do that, you're in a different debate.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If there are good scholarly reasons to think either ever happened, you can bring them here. But a link certainly won't do it.
I've read Hoffmeier but never found anything, anything at all beyond speculative vague assertions that quite frankly seem unrelated to either the Exodus or the Conquest of Canaan. I don't think anyone doubt or disputes that there was cultural exchanges between all of the civilizations of the area but what he asserts seems nothing more than a suggestion of influences throughout the reason, something no one ever disputed.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Tangle writes: That's fine but to have this discussion at all, you have to allow that miracles are possible and that they defy natural laws. Not really. All we need to allow is that unexplained things happen that some people label as "a miracle".
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: Not really. All we need to allow is that unexplained things happen that some people label as "a miracle". Inferring that people are always mistaken is exactly the same as not allowing miracles as they're defined. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
We're talking about something WITNESSED by people that doesn't happen to leave physical evidence. It is ASSERTED WITHOUT EVIDENCE that people witnessed something. That is true. I am not going to play this "scholarship" game which is nothing but every kind of speculation designed to contradict traditional Christianity. Traditional Christianity requires belief in the gospels and all the other Biblical reports, and it has been through that belief that powerful benefits to the world have come, and millions have led faith-guided lives that only increase their belief. The evidence is in the history itself and the documents themselves, and I will not listen to the debunkery brigade. abe: And from the previous post:
The gospels have been understood for two millennia to be honest accounts by honest people. That's an assumption, not evidence. It's actually experience-guided certainty, not assumption. The evidence has already been given many times, the trustworthiness of the gospel writer witnesses. Nobody deserves any more evidence since your rejection of what has been given is nothing but crabbed prejudice. The evidence is quite sufficient. You believe or you don't. That's what Jesus asked for: repent and believe. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
LOL
Too funny.
Tangle writes: Inferring that people are always mistaken is exactly the same as not allowing miracles as they're defined. And when someone actually infers that people are always mistaken maybe you should bring that up. But it has absolutely nothing to do with anything I said.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9512 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Jar writes: Too funny. Ah, there's the tell again. Game over then.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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