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Author Topic:   Senator Al Franken?
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(1)
Message 235 of 300 (825660)
12-16-2017 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by ringo
12-16-2017 11:04 AM


Re: Assault and Pepper Spray
ringo responds to me:
quote:
I'm trying to determine what a "sexual assault" is. Is it what the victim perceived or is it what the perpetrator intended? Both "assault" and "sexual" are open to interpretation.
Indeed. Some instances are easy to determine. What Moore is accused of doing is clearly "sexual assault": There is no other possible motivation for grabbing someone's head and shoving it into your crotch after locking the car door and trying to kiss them.
Now, for the women who say Franken groped them, they all seem to be in the context of having had a picture taken where it seems like it's possible that Franken didn't realize what it was he was doing. That doesn't change what happened and it certainly doesn't alter how they felt about what happened.
But is sexual assault dependent solely upon how a person feels about it? Inferral is magic? As long as a person feels it was sexual assault, that means it is?
And that's why I keep saying that Franken's case is complicated. It is possible to believe both the women and Franken. That still doesn't mean he's necessarily innocent...a man who can't pay attention to where his hands go over and over again is not exactly a paragon. And that may be enough to say he should resign. But if we can't tell if I was sexually assaulted, by what right have we to say that Franken assaulted anybody?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by ringo, posted 12-16-2017 11:04 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by RAZD, posted 12-17-2017 8:49 AM Rrhain has replied
 Message 238 by ringo, posted 12-17-2017 1:30 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 245 of 300 (825958)
12-19-2017 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by RAZD
12-17-2017 8:49 AM


Re: another view
RAZD responds to me:
quote:
Consider a person going down the street and patting people on the butt -- should they be put on a sexual predator registry? I think not, just told it isn't appropriate.
Really? Don't we need a lot more information before we can determine if it was merely "inappropriate"?
F'rinstance, how old is this person? There's a difference between a four-year-old doing this and a forty-year-old. We presume that the four-year-old doesn't know any better and thus we can let the kid off with a lecture about appropriate behaviour. The forty-year-old, on the other hand, should know better.
But what if it's one of those pranks? We've all seen the YouTube videos where people will get up behind a guy who is walking near a woman, tap her on the butt in such a way that she thinks it's the other guy, and vanish so that she turns her wrath on him. Suppose we got this guy thinking that he's being part of such a prank only the prank is really on him?
As an aside regarding those prank videos, usually the woman is in on it...she knows she's gonna get touched by the guy who is in on it...but then she turns around and slugs the guy they're pranking. So they've decided to use a prank about sexual assault to justify physically assaulting someone. There are other videos of people deliberately trying to scare people. "It's just a prank!"
Yeah, but you still physically assaulted someone. You just scared someone. Intent is not magic and the fact that you didn't "mean" to do something doesn't mean it didn't happen. How fortunate you are that the people you've decided to prank are willing to forgive and laugh. At some point, someone isn't going to think it's so funny.
And then what do we do? Well, with pranksters, they don't really have an excuse of saying, "I didn't know." Yeah, you did. You were counting on it. The entire prank doesn't work unless you set up an instance of assault/fright. So I think a little bit more than just a talking to regarding "inappropriate" is in order.
What if it's someone who is known for this sort of behaviour? This happens on the Japanese commuter trains all the time. Some trains are specifically for women only because there are too many men who specifically and deliberately do this to women. To say that they just need to be told that "it isn't appropriate" isn't nearly enough.
quote:
A kiss with tongue falls into that category -- it's inappropriate, but it's not necessarily sexual.
Why not? Was I sexually assaulted? That's what happened to me.
quote:
Grabbing a breast is sexual assault.
Why? Did I sexually assault my scene partner? That's what I did to her.
quote:
My experience - when I was 19 that involved me being too drunk to stand, and a person unzipped me and fondled my boys - was sexual assault. It was not a kiss. It was not a request.
And that's happened to me, too.
Why would them sticking their hand in your pants be sexual assault but not their tongue in your mouth?
quote:
Now I do think that sexual harassment and inappropriate touching are not proper for an elected official.
Until we have an investigation, how do we know?
When we say that we "believe the women," what does that mean? For me, it means I believe that what they say happened actually happened and what they are feeling regarding it is serious and not to be dismissed. It isn't "all in their head."
That doesn't mean that the other party is suddenly a "sexual predator." We can believe the victim and still think the perpetrator isn't guilty of such a level of crime. Depending upon what happened, it may just be a horrendous accident (for which the perpetrator should still profusely apologize and work to try to not let happen again) or it may have been deliberate. Until we investigate, we'll never know.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by RAZD, posted 12-17-2017 8:49 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 248 of 300 (826083)
12-21-2017 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Percy
12-18-2017 11:11 AM


Twelfth time, Percy
Percy writes:
quote:
This is a lot of women to not believe
Who said we don't believe them?
It's time you answered the question, Percy:
When you say you "believe the women," what does that mean?
Are you truly saying that if somebody says it, that's the end of it?
Was I sexually harassed, Percy? It happened to me.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Percy, posted 12-18-2017 11:11 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 249 of 300 (826084)
12-21-2017 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by NoNukes
12-20-2017 4:42 PM


Re: Why no ethics committee hearing for Franken
NoNukes writes:
quote:
As much as it pains me to say so, Franken's behavior is an assault/battery at minimum.
What about me? Was I the victim of assault/battery? Did I commit assault/battery? The exact same things happened to me or were perpetrated by me.
So if two people take a picture and one reaches around the other and accidentally puts a hand where it shouldn't be, that's sufficient? There's no possible way for it to be an accident? The only way to not be a perpetrator is to be perfect at all times with no exceptions?
Note, that doesn't change what happened. The person who feels violated still feels violated. But is it not possible that despite the fact that it happened, it doesn't mean what some people think it means? This doesn't invalidate their feelings, but it also doesn't mean the person who did is some sort of bad person.
When we say we "believe the women," what does that mean?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by NoNukes, posted 12-20-2017 4:42 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by NoNukes, posted 12-21-2017 8:40 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 251 of 300 (826086)
12-21-2017 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by NoNukes
12-20-2017 4:44 PM


Re: Lefties on the bullseye?
NoNukes responds to me:
quote:
Only you can grant permission with regards to your own body.
So there's no way for it to be an accident? If I feel that the other person "meant it," then that is sufficient to declare that the other person really did?
Do we really get to say that you get to tell me whether I "meant it"? Based solely upon your feelings?
quote:
Beyond the specific point I've commented on, there are plenty of differences between your scenario and the ones Al is involved in.
No, they're not. The situation with Tweeden is precisely what happened with me: A planned kiss suddenly became something it wasn't planned to be.
The situation with the other women is precisely what I did: I put my hand where it shouldn't have been.
quote:
There are no "stage kisses" between a celebrity and his fans.
And that isn't what Franken did. Instead, he got in close to take a picture, put his hand around the other person (like you do...this is not something out of the ordinary), and that hand went somewhere it shouldn't have.
There is no way for it to be an accident? If the person says he meant it, he did? You get to tell me what I meant to do if you don't like what I did?
quote:
What there is instead is some kind of 'celebrity liberty' wherein celebrities get away with stuff that other folks know not to do, and wherein the victims are supposed to just laugh it off.
What? Where the hell did that come from? Nobody's "laughing it off." Franken apologized.
We're back to the question nobody seems to be able to answer:
When we say we "believe the women," what does that mean?
quote:
Well, guess what? That 'liberty' is assault. There is no obligation on the part of women to tolerate that shit.
So I was assaulted? I just want to be clear on this: You are saying that I was assaulted and that I committed assault? There are no accidents? Everything is always on purpose?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by NoNukes, posted 12-20-2017 4:44 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2017 4:36 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 252 of 300 (826087)
12-21-2017 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by NoNukes
12-21-2017 8:40 PM


Re: Why no ethics committee hearing for Franken
NoNukes responds to me:
quote:
I have answered this question to the best of my ability.
Really? Because I have yet to hear a "yes" or a "no."
Which means you haven't answered the question.
quote:
If one person shoves his tongue down another person's throat, that is sufficient.
So she assaulted me? She should be hounded out of any office she had? If I, like Tweeden, say otherwise, that's insufficient?
It's a yes-or-no question, NoNukes. Why is it so hard to answer it simply?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by NoNukes, posted 12-21-2017 8:40 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by NoNukes, posted 12-21-2017 9:21 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 258 of 300 (826236)
12-26-2017 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by NoNukes
12-21-2017 9:21 PM


Re: Why no ethics committee hearing for Franken
NoNukes responds to me:
quote:
quote:
Really? Because I have yet to hear a "yes" or a "no."
Which means you haven't answered the question.
No, that's not what it means.
Well, yes, it does. It shows that you are uncomfortable answering it. Here is what you wrote (why does nobody seem to remember that we can all look back and see what you wrote?) Message 212
This hypothetical and your view of what happened to you does not match any fact pattern for any of the relevant cases. All of the women involved in the public cases under discussion say that it happened and that it was a big deal. With regards to the cases involving minors, I don't care whether the women are okay with it or not.
In addition, Franken appears to be involved in a series of similar incidents rather than a single incident that can be explained away as you do your own incident.
Since only you and one other woman is involved, and that woman is not trying to hold a position of responsibility in government, I'm satisfied with whatever handling of the incident you did. Similarly, I don't expect to see Al Franken, or Conyers, or Moore arrested. But I don't want those folks in Congress.
Your mileage may vary.
There's no answer there. Instead, you try to fob it off on me. But let's actually analyze what you said.
"This hypothetical."
What just a fucking minute. What happened to me was "hypothetical"? Or was what happened to Tweeden "hypothetical"? I was willing to let it go the first time, but you've decided to pretend that you've got some sort of moral high ground here so all pretense of civility has just been tossed.
"does not match any fact pattern for any of the relevant cases."
Except it does. It is pretty much identical to what happened to Tweeden: In a scripted performance that includes a kiss, someone stuck their tongue in the mouth of the other without permission.
You've avoided and evaded, hiding behind a claim that you need to hear whether or not I was OK with it afterward, refusing to explain why.
And thus, your behaviour is dishonest. You have called my experience "hypothetical," denied the reality of the precision with which my experience matches that of Tweeden's, and run away from any attempt to have you define your reasoning.
I wouldn't say we don't have anything to discuss. More accurately, you don't want to discuss it.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by NoNukes, posted 12-21-2017 9:21 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 259 of 300 (826238)
12-26-2017 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by NoNukes
12-22-2017 4:36 PM


Re: Lefties on the bullseye?
NoNukes responds to me:
quote:
Do you have any facts to add?
Do you have any defense of your argument? Do you even have an argument?
quote:
Do you believe it was an accident?
Franken does. Do we believe him? Does believing him necessarily mean that we don't believe the women?
Can't they both be right?
I'm in the identical situation to what happened to Franken, both in what happened to me and what I have done (neither of which were "hypothetical") and given that you can't seem to put forward an argument, your intellectual dishonesty is reaching epic levels.
My conclusion is that you're running away.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by NoNukes, posted 12-22-2017 4:36 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 260 of 300 (826239)
12-26-2017 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Percy
12-24-2017 8:28 AM


Percy writes:
quote:
For those who doubt the women's stories
Name one.
Name one person in this thread that "doubts the women's stories," Percy.
Does the term "strawman" mean anything to you?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Percy, posted 12-24-2017 8:28 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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